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Re: Kate, you are a traitor to your gender. FINE keep being owned by men like Matt. You're the one who will suffer. And I'm not a man basher, I happen to have a male fiance who I've been with longer than your assumed time frame for poly relationships. I just hate women hating cavemen like Matt. Secondly, poly relationships are the last thing from selfish. You have to be very unselfish to be in such a relationship. Thirdly, Poly is an orientation! Just like being queer or straight, or anything in between, it's WHO YOU ARE. So go on hating people for being true to themselves. That's really freaking christian of you. Lastly, there's nothing christian about calling someone a slut. Why you think Matt is such a religious, righteous person is beyond me. You both need to get your head checked up. You're rather paranoid as well, thinking me and moon are the same person. Lots of people like stars and moons. Silly. And I'm not bitching about Matt's life, he insulted mine first!

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Re: Matt Ignore her. She is as intolerant as she accuses you of being (and you are). Also, she accuses you of being a mysoginsist when she is clearly a man-basher. Oddly, you two are much alike in your sense of determination. BTW - Don't you find it incredibly coincidental that her supporter is named "Moon" when she is "Stardoggedmoon" and that her supporter is older just as another poster (Pat, I think) from another site that we both read suggested regarding this exact issue? Methinks they are one and they same. I have yet to meet the couple in a poly relationship that has lasted more than three years. One year for experimenting and two for the final divorce papers. I had wanted to refrain from expressing too much of my opinion on this topic because I do believe in Live and let live, but people in poly relationships are too selfish to make a commitment. Too selfish to give a crap about other peoples feelings and sense of social more. A by-product of the "me" generation. Try to take comfort in Karma - What goes around comes around. If she were really happy about her life she wouldn't need to bytch (misspelling intentional) about yours. Because of her low self-esteem she needs to put you down in order to feel better about herself. Offer her some Christian charity. She needs it whether or not she realizes it.

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I suspect the "open marriage" isn't going to work out as well as these swingers believe it will. And all those STD's each partner is likely to bring home...yuck! Without going into the morality of it all (I suspect these people already know that social conservatives like myself wouldn't approve, and don't much care), it is kind of like communism - one of those things that sounds great on paper but doesn't work out so well when it's actually tried. I've heard of couples that do this, and what (usually) winds up happening is that the wife winds up getting a lot more "action" than her husband. This is simply because, biologically speaking, men are generally more interested in casual sex with a married woman, than the reverse scenario. I suspect that when the husband goes out cruising for women and explains to them that he and his wife "have an understanding," a lot of them simply won't believe him and will walk away. I remember dating a girl in college who was friends with a couple that had this "arrangement," and she told me that while it had been the husband's idea, it was the wife who was bringing men home all the time. My girlfriend then said that the husband got jealous, naturally, and tried to make a move on HER, to which she had absolutely no interest. A few couples manage to make this work, but as with threesomes, a VERY strong committment is required beforehand. Nine times out of ten, infidelity of any kind simply results in the destruction of the marriage.

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Re: Matt -- Matt, I often agree with your points on morality, but really your language this time is off base. Please ignore these women. You know there are people like them in this world and it's their business how they live their lives. They may have some good ideas about some things but on others, we'll never find common ground. At 60 years of age, I've decided I will never be able to MAKE someone else change their views on things just because I'd like them too. Using angry and vulgar language will only make them more determined to not change their viewpoints. I know I wouldn't if someone reacted that way to something I said. I know they have some really strange ideas that are nothing that I could agree with, but they have that right. So calm down. (Yeah, right. That sounds patronizing and I certainly don't mean it that way. Just recognize that you'll never be able to change them and accept it. Then go do something else so you won't keep thinking about it.) Anyway, I wish you peace and happiness. ----- BTW, I don't think I'm the Pat that Kate was referring to. I'm the one who refers to herself as the "Other Pat" when someone else named Pat posts a comment. The last time she did, she used some rather bad language in reference to a cheating s-i-l that I found disturbing. I'd change my posting name, but I'm sure it'll be a lot of trouble. Does anyone know how to do that and keep the same email address or will I have to create a new one?

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Re: stardoggedmoon Dear Star, LOL Wow. Who hates whom? A traitor to my gender? I will suffer? I don't hate you. Never said I did. In fact, I feel sorry for you and your chosen sexuality has little to do with it. You are probably one of the angriest persons I have ever 'met.' Why are you so hostile about the differing opinions of people you do not know? Have you ever heard the expression "Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm"? Boy, are you enthusiastic! Anger and depression is usually caused by insecurity. You called back-handedly called yourself a slut by epousing a book called "The Ethical Slut" and saying that it expresses good guidelines for how you choose to live. I am not paranoid. I don't think people are out to get me. It was just a theory. No one "owns" me (except perhaps my mortgage company). I am self-supporting. I never said I was a Christian. I never said Matt was righteous. Neither one of you has been respectful. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." "You get back what you give out." "What goes around comes around." "Live and let live." "Karma." By any name, Mutual Respect, is a universal concept. I called it "Christian charity" to communicate to Matt in his language. If you actually stopped being so sactimonious and actually read what I have written on this topic you would realize that I think both of you are in the wrong. I am entitled to my opinion. So stop being abusive. I just thought there was a better chance of appealing to the tenents of Matt's beliefs than your defensiveness. You are the one who is suffering and I will pray for you in my way.

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LW1: I agree with Matt's take on this situation and I have to disagree to some extent with Margo. I agree with the part where she said she didn't think it was not her idea of what marriage is all about. The lw does not say how old his sons are. But having an open marriage is NOT something they'll be able to hide from their children (or relatives, or neighbors, etc.). It will be revealed at some point. The lw and his wife should consider that likelihood and think how they are going to feel about that and what affect it will have on their sons. Parents do have a responsibility to be good role models for their children. Children should not have to be ashamed of their parents' behavior. Do the lw and his wife feel that extra-marital sex is something they would advocate for their sons? This is exactly the message they will be sending. Another thing to consider is how the rest of their families and friends will react. Some may very well cut off the relationship because they disapprove and/or they don't want their children to think that kind of behavior is acceptable. LW2: I don't understand why they didn't come up with a simpler plan years ago. The son should get an equal amount and it's easy to do; the grandfather should just give him 2 blue bills which would equal the amount of one pink bill. Problem solved. If the grandfather can't do that, I like Margo's solution of putting the money in a joint 'kitty' and divvy it out for chores. However, I'd give equal amounts of half the total money to each child as "gift" money but put it into savings accounts for them so they can learn the value of saving.

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Well, finally Margo comes up with some good advice--the one about the mother being the banker. A parent should not stand by and watch one of her children crushed over and over. It's especially outrageous when it's a close relative. I would tell the old goat to keep his money. But Margo had a good plan, each child gets $7.50 from the pot.

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Re: Kate My CHOICE in sexuality? I think not. It's an orientation, just like being queer or straight. It's how I was born. I think it's weird how THREATENED all the non-poly people feel by my sexuality. It maybe points to them as having the issues?

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Oh, and I will NOT tolerate people attacking me for my sexuality, or those attacking the sexuality of others. Just like I will not tolerate racism. I don't like biggots trying to tell me how to run my life.

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Matt secretly longs to be in a polyamorous relationship with his girlfriend and Ann Coulter.

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Re: Pat Dear Other Pat, Are you referring to me when saying "these women"? Or are you referring just to Moon and Stardogged Moon? I have not been rude or abusive to anyone. And I am not trying to change Matt's mind. I actually agree with him, just don't agree with how he expressed his opinion. I am not even trying to change Star's mind, even though I disagree with her personal choice of sexuality. I stand by my opinion on this topic. My opinion is based on what I have witnessed and experienced in my life. All I have been trying to express is mutal respect. Simple tolerance. Do you disagree with that? Best Regards.

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Poly relationships work as we can see if we look at chimpanzees.

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Re: stardoggedmoon. Piss off, you ignorant slut. If you don't like my comments, don't read them.

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The people interested in an open marriage need to find a local poly group and get acquainted. Those with SUCCESSFUL open, swinging or poly relationships (and they are all three different concepts) do NOT have sex without protection. If it's done right, just as with any sort of dynamic, it can be rewarding and help strengthen the primary bond between the original couple. I know at least 3 couples who have been in some form of non traditional for more than 20 years, it's not as rare as many might think.

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Re: moon, THank you! Another poly supporter here. It's the ONLY relationship model that has been successful for me, and very much so! Ignore Matt, he's a heteronormative bigot who can't stand the idea of women who can't be owned.

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Re: Matt: Ooooh... you're scary. What are you going to do? Come over and slap some straight into me? You obviously have issues with women, especially strong independant ones.

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Re: stardoggedmoon, You're welcome. I'm nearing sixty, and have always been a poly supporter. I was poly before I knew what I was doing!!! LOL! We have an odd dynamic, but it works for us. Sister-wife is one of my very best friends in the world. My husband and I will have been married 23 years this month, the poly relationship is in it's 8th year, and grows stronger every year.