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Every Problem Does Not Have a Solution
Dear Margo: Many years ago, I got a call informing me that my son was arrested and being held on $1 million bail. That was when I first learned that he is a pedophile.
He has just completed his 20-year prison sentence, and during that time I learned …Read more.
When You Live on a One-Way Street
Dear Margo: My patience has run out with the three living members of my family. My father, his mother and my brother have gone through periods of not talking to each other or to me. My brother wants nothing to do with my father or our grandmother, …Read more.
People Don't Have To "Get Over" Everything
Dear Margo: Twenty years ago, I lost my job and couldn't find another one. My savings ran out, and bit by bit, I hocked everything until I was left with only the clothes on my back. My mother had a three-bedroom house, but she was dating for the …Read more.
This Fundamental Difference Bodes Ill for a Happy Marriage
Dear Margo: After two years of research and soul-searching, I have rejected my faith and become an atheist/humanist. I grew up in a Christian household, and all of my family and most of my friends are Christians. I was once devout, and I married a …Read more.
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Sex and the City
Dear Margo: My daughter, 22, refuses to go out with men. Why? It seems that girls of her generation have created a situation where the young man summons the young woman to his apartment to "hook up." That's the date: no phone call, just a text message. Then, after the event, the girl wonders why he doesn't call. In addition, the young lady is expected to wax her privates and carry baby wipes in her purse so she can be fresh and ready for anything. This is because men like "young" girls.
If you recall our college days, gentlemen called you no later than Wednesday for a Saturday night date. They wined and dined you and walked you to the door for a goodnight kiss, if they were lucky. Sex came later, when the woman felt she was in a committed relationship. Young women today should all unite, stop waxing and "take back the night." — Sally
Dear Sal: You and I wouldn't have gone for the routine that you say is today's norm. I think our generation was lucky that sex meant something and "virtue" had value. The hook-up culture of today strikes me as bizarre, with its practitioners the losers.
I don't think you're asking a question so much as voicing a protest. Your views seem to coincide with your daughter's — and I'm guessing she got hers from you. I hope you'll make an effort not to be nervous on her behalf, because there are men who find the hooking-up culture shallow and demeaning. People are getting married all the time, and I seriously doubt all those romances began with a booty call. And guess what? Following is a letter from your daughter.
Sex and the City: Part II
Dear Margo: My mother wrote you in regard to me and men. I know she's concerned that I don't date, and I want to give you my perspective. I knew about sex at a young age and felt comfortable being open with her. I chose not to lose my virginity in high school; my mother always told me not to settle. I went to college, and a voice in my head told me to wait. I was not interested in one-night stands in a fraternity house. I was mysterious, an enigma.
The "virgin thing" went from enigma to stigma in the real world. I've been working for a year, and I'm 22 and still a virgin. My confidence makes me attractive to men, and I have a head-turning Kim Kardashian figure. Desirable men flirt with me, but I know they are only after one thing. I am mature for my age, which comes off as sexually experienced. Men don't ask me on dates; they just invite me to their humble abodes. I feel disinclined to accept any of these offers because of my "secret." All I really want is for someone to see me for me. — Virgin Whore
Dear Virg: I believe your mother understands where you are coming from and, in fact, agrees with you. Her concern is that you will never find Mr. Right if you refuse to go on dates. I think you are shortchanging the appeal of not being easy. Sexual America may be on a faster track than before, but there are still men with standards. My recommendation would be for you to accept what you imagine to be invitations to hook up and then treat them as dates — you know, with things like "conversation." If the guy is disappointed, well ... he might also be intrigued. You will at least have given him a chance.
Do not buy into the "stigma" business. Somewhere there's a man who doesn't think much of hooking up and is looking for a girl like you, and the only way you will find him is by accepting dates. I have been around a long time and know that when the chemistry is right, you can pretty much have things your way. — Margo, determinedly
Dear Margo is written by Margo Howard, Ann Landers' daughter. All letters must be sent via e-mail to dearmargo@creators.com. Due to a high volume of e-mail, not all letters will be answered.
COPYRIGHT 2011 MARGO HOWARD
DISTRIBUTED BY CREATORS.COM
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18 Comments | Post Comment
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Margo has given LW2 terrible and dangerous advice when she tells her to accept what is essentially a booty call invitation - to a man's home, presumably - and try to conduct it as a date, with just conversation when she gets there. That's a perfect set up for date rape. At best she runs the risk of being labeled a tease and thrown out summarily when thé guy realizes she refuses to put out.
When invited to a guy's place, she should just make it clear that she's not interested in doing that but would certainly agree to go out with him, with emphasis on OUT, i.e. In public. It doesn't have to come across as an expensive proposition. Suggest a picnic, a free concert in a park, coffee shop, whatever. If he declines, l&l know where he stands and she's saved them both a lot of trouble.
Comment: #1
Posted by: WinehouseFan
Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:33 PM
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Am I the only person that thinks it a little strange for Margo to be pushing the standards of her generation, considering they seem to have also led to her treating marriage the way the younger generations properly treat dating relationships?
Anyway... It sounds to me like the young woman has spent most of her young life being told all kinds of twisted nonsense about other people in her generation (particularly young men) based on alarmist stuff her mother picked up from the media.
I don't have sex outside of committed relationships with someone I love as I don't find it appealing; I simply don't figure that makes me superior or more "virtuous" than it would if I had different preferences. *However* there's darn good reasons that the idea of a woman's "virtue" being in her virginity has fallen by the wayside; it ignores that anybody's "virtue" is in their brain rather than their body & implies it's OK for a guy to get laid but somehow 'wrong' for a woman (that she's dirty, dysfunctional, etc. for having or acting on the very same desires).
Also, a woman over 20 that's seen as a wary enigma often attracts guys that aren't interested in the woman as much as the hunt; I've learned it the hard way twice now. That kind of guy is enthralled with the challenge of "taming" the woman, making her "his" -- but once he senses he has "won", he stops finding her or their relationship at all appealing.
My recommendation is twofold:
1) The young woman should stop to contemplate and write out what *she* wants in terms of what her relationship will be like & how it should progress (and why that'd be superior to alternatives), rather than focusing on what she thinks men want from her. She should also take the time to ask others her age why they do things: why women that have sex on the 3rd date (that's the norm) do so, why women & men both shave (it's not just women), etc.
2) If she wants to be with somebody that thinks it's superior for a woman to be a virgin, she should look for dates through an appropriate religious institution (church, mosque, etc.) as that's where the ideals she conveys come from.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Xyzzy
Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:26 AM
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“It seems that girls of her generation have created a situation where the young man summons the young woman to his apartment to "hook up."”
So the girls created this situation all on their own? Men aren't capable of saying no or exercising any moral restraint whatsoever?
I don't know how old Sally is, but she seems to have bought into the myth of the older generation that men can't exercise an iota of sexual self-control. They will simply push a woman's boundaries as far as they can, like a rebellious child does with a parent. That's just a load of crap. There are definitely men out there who are decent and have some moral standards. I think there would probably be more of them if it wasn't for this mentality that men can't be expected to control themselves.
It might help Sally's daughter to realize that the problem of being hit on for sex, and only sex, isn't necessarily a new thing. There have always been rotten men that are only interested in one thing, and they get around a lot, which may make them to appear more plentiful than they really are. She should remember also that she is, as her mother said, a young girl, which makes her a target for men of all ages. Being as attractive as she is makes her even more so.
Any man who is crass enough to invite a woman to his apartment, without even asking her out on a date first, isn't worth any woman's time. I agree with Winehouse Fan that Margo has given very bad advice if she is, indeed, suggesting that Sally's daughter accept an invitation for a hookup and then treat it as a date. Aside from it's being unsafe, it's bound to fail, since the jerk is only out for one thing and isn't going to take kindly to not getting it. It's something of a falsehood that a man who is out for only one thing is going to suddenly going to be ‘intrigued' by a woman who says no, and maybe pursue a real relationship leading to marriage. That's what's wrong with the stupid saying that a man ‘won't buy the cow if he gets the milk for free': it implies that he will ‘buy the cow if he doesn't get the milk for free.' They usually don't. A man will get married or engage in a serious relationship when he's ready for it, not because he's found a girl who will refuse to hop in the sack with him.
Given the hookup mentality which is so prevalent, I think Sally's daughter may have to be more than usually blunt with the men who are coming on to her. If a man asks her to his place, she should tell him to go find a prostitute if that's all he's after. If he asks her out on a date, she should make it clear to him that this is a date, not a hookup, and she believes that dating should lead to relationships. She should be prepared for a fair number of rejections, but that's how it goes. Decent men are out there, but they don't grow on trees, and she'll have a better chance at finding one if she doesn't waste her time with the trashy ones. The cow/milk adage is baloney, but it is true that you have to ‘meet a lot of frogs before you meet the handsome prince.'
And Sally's daughter, don't call yourself a virgin whore. There is absolutely nothing wrong with holding out for the right man. You aren't a whore for being interested in sex, or frigid if you are a virgin. I remained sexually inexperienced at a much older age than you, and I finally found a good, decent man who loved me. Hold on to your standards, refuse to compromise, and you will too.
Comment: #3
Posted by: JMG
Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:34 AM
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I'm not sure the generation of "free love" has any leg to stand on when it comes to chastizing the hook-up culture of today's college kids. Seems to me like that's carrying on a time-honored tradition. I second the comment that going to a guy's house is a bad idea. But, you can ask HIM out. If a guy invites you to his house, say, "How about dinner instead? Tomorrow night?" Either he'll say yes, because he's genuinely interested, or he'll say no, because he's interested in one thing. It's a good way to weed out the douchebags.
As for a guy who'll see you for you...yeah, good luck with that. I had the same problem as LW1 and it doesn't get better with age. Most guys want sex with no commitment and have no interest in you personally. That's just the reality of the situation. It was true when I was 22 and it's true when I'm 38. As the saying goes, you gotta kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince (well, you don't *have* to, but you'll definitely find that the world is quite amphibian). Just don't settle for a frog just because you haven't run into anyone who treats you decently yet. Better to be single than settle.
Comment: #4
Posted by: limniade
Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:06 AM
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LW2: You attract jerks because you are afraid of men and not ready for a committment. Plus, why are you waiting to be plucked? You're no flower. If there is a man out there that you would like to get to know better than ask him for coffee. And stop playing the victim - that's not attractive.
Comment: #5
Posted by: Diana
Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:21 AM
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Sorry, Margo, but both mom and daughter strike me as uppity, snooty people who think they are better than everyone else.
And sorry mom, but even back in your day, hookups happened too, and dates were hardly 100% the ideal picture you paint that old-fashioned films show all the time. Most people didn't go to drive-in films to actually watch the movie, and "inspiration points" weren't named because people drove there to draw blueprints for their latest inventions.
As for the daughter, she comes off as awfully pompous in her letter, and I'm sure she projects a "stay away" attitude despite her figure. What's also disturbing is how she automatically assumes that "Men are only after one thing" when they flirt with her (her own words!). Well yes, of course they are...but there are some caveats for that. First, it's not ALL they are after. Men want companionship, friendship, and support from women too. And second, not all of them are going to want sex immediately on the first, second, or third date, and some may even want to wait a year...and that's where her fallacy lies.
I'm guessing that even a simple friendly, flirty hello from a man is met by her with nose turned up and a "HOW DARE YOU TRY TO SEDUCE ME" aura, and THAT'S why they never call her again and why she can't get a date.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Paul W
Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:38 AM
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I'm with liminade and Paul W -- and I'm going to throw a flag on this play, because LW1 *and* Margo are full of baloney.
Women who are mothers of daughters who are college age now were most likely in their 20s during the 1970s -- an era positively RIFE with swinging, key parties, wild frat parties, swingers clubs, and all sorts of shenanigans. In fact, the pre-AIDS era of the 1970s may have been *bigger* in terms of free sexuality than any of the post-AIDS decades have been.
This is one of those situation where, as adults get older, they "conveniently" forget the more sordid parts of their past and pretend they were all innocent virgins who may have held hands on the third date to the soda shoppe after they all went on a group date to the sock hop.
Stuff and nonsense.
The reality is that, however fast some girls and boys are playing it, there isn't ONE right way of dating or hooking up, there isn't ONE single unified "scene" out there, and the women in both LW1 and LW2 are fully capable of choosing to date they way they want to, it's just a matter of finding the right guys -- and there are plenty of those out there.
Perhaps these women are unfortunately attracted to bad boys, to Casanovas, to very attractive men who frankly haven't had to work that hard to get the ladies into bed, and that's the problem! Open your eyes, widen your field, don't hold this prudish view that every single man out there is a horrible horn dog wanting only one thing -- because if that's the way you view all men, those are the only types of men you are going to see.
But stop vilifying an entire gender; that alone might go a long way into finding an appropriate partner for the kind of date you're looking for.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Mike H
Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:15 PM
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Re: WinehouseFan
I wholeheartedly agree this is a dangerous recommendation if in fact the daughter is confident it is a hookup invitation.
Ever been stuck in a frat house after the mystery hour when you are considered having pre-consented to alarming advances or more?
Oh yes and at least I was with another gal and we beat feet.
At least this gal is not naive to the presumed rules of the game.
If she isn't sure it is really a hookup, why not make a counter offer to t he ones who seem appealing?
No but how about coffee at so and so cafe?
Comment: #8
Posted by: DBee
Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:41 PM
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Some excellent comments in the BTL. The whole "hook up" as date is a complete fallacy -- people the LW's age DO go on actual dates. I'm 40, but I volunteer at a local college and mentor a group of young women. While some of them do hook up, plenty of them are going on real dates and save sex for when they feel they are in an actual relationship. I realize that a woman with bodacious bod are going to attract a lot of horny jerks, but like others here at the BTL, I suspect the daughter is just automatically assuming that every single guy who even looks her way is a horny jerk. Well, they may all be horny, but I'll bet not all of them are jerks. I'm frankly having a hard time believing that she really has only ever had a guy ask her back to his place and not one guy has ever asked her out for drinks, lunch, dinner, etc.
I don't think Margo intended for the daughter to agree to a "date" that consists of going to the guy's house -- at least I hope not. As others have already noted, that is not a wise choice. I think Margo, like me, doesn't really buy that all these men are only asking her back to their homes -- that, in fact, some of these guys probably really have asked her out on a normal date, but she has turned them down because she ASSUMES that all they want is a one-night stand. If I'm right about that, then I agree with Margo -- stop saying no all the time and give someone a chance.
Comment: #9
Posted by: Lisa
Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:42 PM
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LW1--"It seems that girls of her generation have created a situation where the young man summons the young woman to his apartment to "hook up."" Just because a young man "summons" a young woman, doesn't mean she has to go. I think your daughter has a very twisted view of what "normal" dating is all about. In this day and age of instant gratification, I can see perfectly well how your daughter might have developed this abnormal view of what dating is all about. I would suggest you sit your daughter down and have a heart to heart chat with her to explain that what she describes is definitely not normal. Moreover, at 22, I doubt your daughter (or her peers) have reached the level of emotional maturity needed to develop and sustain a genuine relationship. It seems as though your daughter has been hanging out in too many bars or around too many frat houses. Not all "young men" behave as your daughter describes and she needs to know that. There's no need whatsoever for your daughter to succumb to what amounts to more or less being a whore. She can do much better than that and it's apparently up to you to inform her of this fact.
LW2--"...my mother always told me not to settle." And your mother is right. Men your age are hormonal and if they believe they can lure a pretty young woman to their "abode" for sex, they'll be all too willing to try. Remember an age old truism: people want what they can't have. Men like the chase. When a woman simply gives it up because she finds a man attractive, or if she thinks it will give her a leg up on establishing a meaningful relationship with the man, then she's mistaken. Once these guys get what they want, the thrill is gone and it's onto the next chase. Follow your mother's advice and don't settle! There are decent guys out there, as unbelievable as it may seem, who actually respect woman and want to develop a relationship with an alluring young woman before hitting the sheets. These are the men you should give your time and attention. As for the others, simply say "thanks, but no thanks."
Comment: #10
Posted by: Chris
Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:55 PM
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LW1 and 2:
I find your writing to be intriguing and on par with many observations I have, working with teenagers and young adults. Unfortunately, many of the younger generation do exactly as they see on tv and magazines and go for the hookups. I think this may because it's all they know at the moment and as their experiences expand, so to do their wants and needs regarding relationships.
A major problem today is that parents are not speaking to their children about mature relationships and they get information from tv and print that is meant to be provocative and titalating to increases ratings. One might say the same of their favorite songs. I have 10-12 year olds who can sing the nastiest, dirtiest lyrics. They know the gist of what the song is about and nothing of any emotional/moral implications. I think society is slowly cutting out any emotion or bonding for sexual acts.
Luckily, not every young person acts like that. The daughter seems to have unfortunately only met that kind. I think what she's saying is that because of her maturity and physical features, nice guys may only see the "whore" part and not the virgin part. So that sort of leaves the less desirable guys who will do anything. Lets face it, most guys have fantasy women they want to have sex with but would never think of taking out on a real date. I think the daughter is just caught in this sort of mess, not being a snob.
I personally like the way the mother writes as though woman have all the power. Well, at least we once did.
Comment: #11
Posted by: Jess
Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:02 PM
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Wow, some really great comments today, thanks everyone!
I add my voice to those that say loosen up and make sure you aren't projecting a bad attitude. At the same time, hold out for what's right for you. If you don't want to hook up, don't go to a guys house for a while. Insist that you go out.
Being a virgin isn't a problem unless you make it a problem. I was a virgin until I was 25-and then somewhere, almost like magic, I gained a bucketload of confidence. In hindsight, it wasn't magic. It was because I was living along in a foreign country where I didn't speak the language, and I learned that I could easily handle whatever life decided to hand me. In short, I WAS the problem-no confidence, I didn't ask guys out, didn't know how/try to flirt. And I too was at times offended when it was clear someone just wanted sex. But......then I got over that. Isn't is a compliment, ultimately? When I realized how awesome I was, I just started going for it-flirting, laughing, hitting on guys- and found out what worked for me. Losing my virginity relatively late was one of the greatest gifts in my life. No one has EVER coerced me into doing anything sexually, and as result, I have a happy, healthy, thriving sex life that is right for me.
A couple misconceptions from LW1: "the young lady is expected to wax her privates and carry baby wipes in her purse so she can be fresh and ready for anything. This is because men like "young" girls." This is utter bollocks. This has nothing to do with men liking young girls. PERIOD. Bare genitals was so taboo a while ago, that everyone jumped on the bare bandwagon to seem sexually daring. The trend has stayed around and become common place. Different stroked for different folks. Seems to me most people-men and women-like neatly trimmed. But pubic preference does run the spectrum. And we shouldn't shame anyone for what they like, because it's none of our damn business.
From Margo: "Sexual America may be on a faster track than before, but there are still men with standards." Why do you equate people who have more sex or sex partners than you deem appropriate to have no standards?
Comment: #12
Posted by: Walkie
Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:49 PM
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Re: WinehouseFan
I was thinking that exactly. I don't think Margo quite realises just how entitled some males from the younger generation are, how flippant some of them are about violence and how low their opinion of women is. She should listen to the lyrics in gangsta rapper stuff to get an idea - she may need a translator ;-)
Not all young men are such cads, of course, but chances are very high that any male who would be so crude and crass as to issue a sext-booty call is one of them. What Paul W, Limniade and MikeH said.
Comment: #13
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:58 AM
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I agree that men enjoy the thrill of the chase, but why would any woman think a man who treated women this way (calling for a hook-up) would be any kind of prize for her to get by holding out? I mean, why would she want him?
Comment: #14
Posted by: Joannakathryn
Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:08 AM
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I can't claim credit for this theory, but it's 100% true: most women may have a few men that they regret sleeping with, but almost never regret not sleeping with someone. LW2 seems to have good self esteem, so I hope she never lets the openness with which some of her peers view sex affect how she sees herself and her knowledge in her heart that she's worth waiting for.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Nichole
Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:55 PM
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I think I have a slightly different take here. I think LW2, since she thinks of herself as 'hot', is also only flirting with or showing interest in guys who are also 'hot'. These are the guys who are used to getting sex however they want it. I don't believe that ALL men of her generation are summoning girls to their apartments, by any stretch of the imagination. What about the slightly chubby guy? What about the goofy nerdy guy over there, who's probably alot of fun? I was one of those guys, and none of them are summoning any hot girls to their apartments. These guys are probably invisible to her. Look around. (and of course there are plenty of hot guys who are interested in dating, you're just not looking in the right places - are you meeting these guys at bars?).
Comment: #16
Posted by: Steve C
Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:10 PM
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Trying this again, apologies if it shows up twice:
LW2: I have a different take on this situation. I think the LW thinks of herself as "hot" and so is only paying attention to guys who are also "hot". Those are the only guys who are expecting sex delivered to them on a silver platter. What about the chubby guy in the corner, or the nerdy guy with glasses over there? I was one of those types, and I'll be they are invisible to her. I just don't believe that these "normal" guys are summoning ANYONE to their apartments for sex, neither are plenty of hot guys as well, just not the slick types. She also doesn't mention where she's meeting all these guys who are paying attention to her amazing figure - could it be she's only looking in bars?
Comment: #17
Posted by: Steve C
Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:04 PM
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To Virg-
not everyone of our generation is "hooking up" I would suspect you are hanging with the wrong type of people. Try meeting a nice guy in a nice situation, church, the library, study group, mutual family or friends. I held out for the right one and married late at 30, it was so worth it! I found a great guy in my husband and he has conservative "hooking up perceptions " just like me. The more you expose yourself to the dating world the easier it will be to find the right one and don't give up! you have a lot to offer and you know it so do suffer fools and don't let yourself down!
Also- you may want to try the internet, then you can lay it all out there that you are looking for soemthing real, not a text at 2am. It works.
and FYI- your mother is a great resource, she may have friends with sons or advice on navigating the dating world with class.
Comment: #18
Posted by: Amy McLawhorn
Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:54 PM
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