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Every Problem Does Not Have a Solution
Dear Margo: Many years ago, I got a call informing me that my son was arrested and being held on $1 million bail. That was when I first learned that he is a pedophile.
He has just completed his 20-year prison sentence, and during that time I learned …Read more.
When You Live on a One-Way Street
Dear Margo: My patience has run out with the three living members of my family. My father, his mother and my brother have gone through periods of not talking to each other or to me. My brother wants nothing to do with my father or our grandmother, …Read more.
People Don't Have To "Get Over" Everything
Dear Margo: Twenty years ago, I lost my job and couldn't find another one. My savings ran out, and bit by bit, I hocked everything until I was left with only the clothes on my back. My mother had a three-bedroom house, but she was dating for the …Read more.
This Fundamental Difference Bodes Ill for a Happy Marriage
Dear Margo: After two years of research and soul-searching, I have rejected my faith and become an atheist/humanist. I grew up in a Christian household, and all of my family and most of my friends are Christians. I was once devout, and I married a …Read more.
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Ditched or Saved?
Dear Margo: I'm 29, and recently, my fiance of eight years walked out the door and never returned. I thought we had a great relationship and never saw this coming. It was a shock to me, my friends, my family and his. While we were bickering before he left (everyday life stuff), I had no idea we were at a serious crossroads. He recently started a new job, so I thought his general unhappiness was related to stress he was encountering at work. (He refused to open up, so I tried to give him space). I even packed his bags as he went home to "relax."
After two weeks of unanswered emails and hanging up on phone calls, he broke up via an answering machine message. I was left canceling a wedding, moving and sorting out our house (we just bought a house and were moving in two weeks' time), canceling accounts, changing documents, etc., all while he went on a trip with his family.
When he returned to this small community after living with his parents for two months (he is 30), I encountered him at our small church. We spoke, and there was absolutely no remorse on his part for his actions. In fact, he told me he feared I would have manipulated him into staying. (What would I have done, tied him to a chair?)
I am hoping you can provide some advice about how to get over this whole fiasco. I am left feeling incredibly stupid that I didn't see this side of his personality, frustrated that he left without telling me what the heck happened, upset that I'm feeling so depressed, and missing him while he continues to act like this was just a walk in the park. I am speaking with my church counselor, but I'm exhausted from crying myself to sleep. — Wool Pulled Over My Eyes
Dear Wool: What a skunk. Rather than crying your eyes out, I would hope you'd start reviewing the personality traits you have avoided, along with a probable divorce. This guy is cavalier, immature, thoughtless and self-centered. And you may need a different therapist to help you get over Mr. Mistake. He simply isn't worth the anguish, and he's proved it. — Margo, providentially
A Story as Old as Men and Women
Dear Margo: I am a former homicide prosecutor in a major city. I prosecuted a man ("Jeff") for killing his girlfriend/ex-girlfriend ("Mary") by shooting her four times in the head while she was riding in his SUV with him. At the time of the killing, they were broken up, but they had continued communicating with each other.
Jeff and Mary met on one of the online dating sites. She moved in with him the day after their first meeting. (I am leaving out a lot of details.) While I would caution anyone against moving so quickly whether you meet online or through other means, I do think people need to take extra care in dealing with those they meet online. However you meet, take things slowly, and do due diligence in checking the other person out.
I suspect you have written previously about this, but I thought my perspective as a prosecutor might bolster your argument. I cannot figure out why people do not make a more serious effort to look out for themselves. — Former ADA
Dear Form: Despite a ton of mail on this subject over the years, your perspective certainly has been more directly influenced than mine. I think the wish to take someone at face value may often be just that: the person has "a nice face." There are, of course, myriad reasons for why women (and men) are taken for a ride — one being that they want to be. The wish for a partner or a romance is often stronger than good sense, causing people to overlook red flags. Hope, apparently, is stronger than evidence. And the beat goes on. — Margo, regretfully
Dear Margo is written by Margo Howard, Ann Landers' daughter. All letters must be sent via the online form at www.creators.com/dearmargo. Due to a high volume of e-mail, not all letters will be answered.
COPYRIGHT 2011 MARGO HOWARD
DISTRIBUTED BY CREATORS.COM
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39 Comments | Post Comment
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Re: LW1 -- just to play devil's advocate, I wonder if all those "just everyday life stuff" bickering sessions were more frustrating to him than LW1 ever realized. Perhaps to him he felt like he was in a relationship that was turning into nothing but constant arguments.
Also... when he says she "would have manipulated him into staying", it makes me wonder if there is a history of him feeling like the relationship wasn't going well but her "convincing" him to stay.
See... there's another side to this story.
Also, I'm a little confused -- has he really been your fiancé for 8 years??? Or have you been together for 8 years and only engaged for 1 or 2? Because if you were engaged for 8 years without actually getting married, that's kind of a warning signal right there that he was never exactly rushing to get married to you.
I'm just left with this nagging feeling that there's a lot more to this story. A man in a happy, loving relationship planning to get married doesn't just end it all suddenly without any reason at all. You either missed some serious problems, or you minimized more serious problems and he just couldn't go through with it.
Maybe not. I mean, maybe things were fine between you two and he just got cold feet after 8 years together, and he was completely wrong and did it in a terrible way. But... real life is rarely that black and white.
Comment: #1
Posted by: Mike H
Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:11 AM
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I thought the same thing, Mike. Sorry, but no one can be your fiance for 8 years. If marriage is your goal and you're not married after 3 years together, you're more into him than he is into you. And why is he a skunk for breaking up with her? Sounds to me like she was harassing him after he left, and the breakup was done (he moved out, for Pete's sake) long before the phone message.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Jane
Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:20 AM
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LW1--"I'm 29, and recently, my fiance of eight years walked out the door and never returned. I thought we had a great relationship and never saw this coming." Wow, Margo is waaaaaay off base on this one! If I were a betting man, I would bet everything that for the past eight years of her "relationship" LW1 never listened to her boyfriend, never heard what he had to say, dismissed his thoughts, feelings, wants and needs. She sucked him into her orbit and then systematically dismantled his individuality to remake him in her own image. Then she took him for granted. She's probably a narcissist. Or a single-child female (they both share traits.) Over the years, LW1's boyfriend slowly lost his identity and probably woke up one day, looked in the mirror and wondered who he was. Yet even when he was "screaming" for LW1's attention at the top of his lungs, she was too busy taking care of HERSELF to hear him. The only thing he could possibly do was walk away and when he did, LW1 was suddenly shocked as to why! It's inconceivable to her that SHE had anything to do with her boyfriend leaving. Apparently LW1 doesn't understand that a relationship is a partnership. It's a coming together of two equals who SHARE their lives TOGETHER. My advice to LW1 is to contemplate this concept before she sucks another man into her black hole of self importance.
LW2--On-line dating has become so easy and impersonal that many people now regard finding a mate with the same mentality they would use when contemplating the purchase of a new vehicle. They go on-line, fill out a personality quiz, then they simply pick the "options" they're looking for and viola...a list of dates fills the screen. They then go out and "test drive" a few before settling on one that's comfortable and will go the miles.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Chris
Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:48 AM
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Agree with everything that's been said regarding LW1 so far, and just want to add - Margo is making all the normal clucking noises women make to women when they're sharing sob stories about men. But she seriously overlooked the very things that Mike pointed out. And whose idea was it to buy a house together? Who was making all the wedding plans? That remark about her manipulating him into staying says everything - probably the first thing he's said in a long time that she actually heard.
LW2's testimony is powerful, but it won't stop people from seeing what they want to see and disregarding what's under their noses until it's too late. To paraphrase something Carolyn Hax said years ago: "We drive too fast, smoke, drink until it's up to strangers whether or not we get home, and the number one question people ask me is "How can I not get hurt?"
Comment: #4
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:40 AM
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Totally agree with Margo on LW1. Engaged for 8 years??? Then instead of having an adult conversation to break things off, he takes off and leaves her to deal with the wreckage? She should thank her lucky stars that he's somebody else's problem now. He was afraid that she would manipulate him into staying? What- is he a toddler? He needs to put on his big boy pants and start acting like a man. I hope she kept the ring, pawned it, and used the money to at least splurge on a spa day as I doubt that this man-child gave her anything significiant enough to fund much else.
Comment: #5
Posted by: Jennifer
Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:08 AM
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They weren't engaged, I'll bet. Women who are rabid for husbands tell folks that they're "engaged" in the hopes that it'll be true if they say it often enough. They were TOGETHER for 8 years--different story. I can see that she may have been snipping at him too often, running him off, but I can also see that he left her without any type of communication--which is wrong, too. And to throw it in her face--at church--shows immaturity and mean-spiritedness. Yes, there's more to the story, and I'm sure she wrote this letter to elicit a certain response. I'm sure Margo would have a different take had the man written.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Katie
Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:26 AM
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I agree with all the other posters that there is more to LW1's story than we're getting here, but I would tell her to change churches, no matter who is at fault. She doesn't need to be seeing him every week.
I'd also tell her to decide to be happy, now. Crying herself to sleep and letting him see how broken-hearted she is doesn't serve any good purpose. (But, that may be one of her ways of manipulating, if that's what she does.)
Comment: #7
Posted by: Joannakathryn
Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:12 AM
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Like everyone has said, there are two sides to every story. No one is 100% right and no one is 100% wrong.
Everyone reading these comments knows there are people who are passive, people who are aggressive and those that combine the two.
1. The responsibility to cancel a wedding and cancel a real estate transaction and take apart the current living space is BOTH of them. No matter if she was a manipulative conniving bully, he needed to have the big boy parts to stand his ground and clean up his mess too. He went on vacation with his family. Not a grown-up response on his part.
2. She needs to go to a different church. Or he does. Either way, don't see each other. Walk away from the whole thing. Continued interaction WILL lead to bitterness and an inability to move on, mainly for her.
3. She also needs to take an honest look at herself and her behavior. Does she frequently "push" others and force things? I have a friend who is a force of nature, whatever she can't bully her way into, she can manipulate her way into, either way, it's her way or the highway. I am finding myself better at standing up to her, but it's been a process. And she refuses to see herself as she is, full of pride and bluster. Can this woman see herself as she is and make corrections?
4. My first fiance and I went to bed one night and things were fine. When I awoke the next morning, he was a different person and almost literally tossed me out of his house. His ex-wife cheated on him, spent almost $10K on gambling, his ex-girlfriend was abusive to him and his kids, gambled a $1000 in two days and cheated on him, but it took him YEARS to end it with them. What did I do? He said he was mad that I let my sister move his sportscar and I scratched his fry pan. THAT is why? My sister didn't ding his car or damage it in any way and yes, I did scratch his Revereware copper bottom and plastic handle fry pan by using a steel wool pad on it. I apologized and apparently scratching his pans is a deal-breaker. People can change overnight and become nutty about things.
Comment: #8
Posted by: Chelle
Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:46 AM
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Chris: misogynist much? Didn't we agree that you shouldn't post on man/woman relationships since you are gay? What a ridiculous post!
Joannakathryn: I agreed with your post until the last sentence. I think the LW should at the very least seek counseling from an impartial third party source. In a small town, this may mean going quite far to get that help but by going to the same church as her ex does, for counseling, by counselors who aren't licenced most likely and who may even talk about her behind her back, it's not going to help her get over things.
fact is, we don't know if the LW was trapping this guy or not. She's not even making that the issue. the issue is helping her to move on. The bet way to do that is to find other interests (including dating other guys), get her attention and focus off the whole situation and just MOVE ON!
LW2: A poster on another site said it best. This kind of thing happened way before the internet and actually the internet makes it easier to check people out. Stop blaming the internet because you are just lazy, stupid, trusting or just unlucky. I wish people would stop blaming the internet for every crime. J
Comment: #9
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:50 AM
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Before anyone slams me for my comment about Chris, I was told last week by Chris and Mike H. that no straight woman can possibly have any type of opinion on gay issues because only gay people can understand gay people.
Check it out on last Saturday's thread. I try to value all people's opinions and I personally don't care if anyone is gay, straight, bi or whatever, but since it was thrown at me last week, and because of the hateful tone towards women in Chris's post, I had to bring it up again.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled programming. Please everybody else, forgive me for bringing that comment up, but in this case, it does have merit.
Comment: #10
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:57 AM
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Wow. Unsatisfied with the bloodstains left elsewhere, the participants move their death match to other columns.
Comment: #11
Posted by: Jpp
Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:54 AM
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Re: Jpp
No Jpp. Same column. Different day.
I'm very consistent
Comment: #12
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:13 AM
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LW1: Fiance of 8 years? Really? I'm assuming you knew him for more than 8 years so you actually must be stupid to not have seen this side of his personality. Stupidity is a choice not a disease. You chose to see what you wanted. You have to ask yourself why you wanted to be with this man. I would suggest therapy to help you figure that out.
LW2: Ahh, desperation - the drug of choice. Most people are afraid to be alone with themselves and they base their value on how others feel about them. It's a recipe for disaster. Mystery solved.
Comment: #13
Posted by: Diana
Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:52 AM
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@ nanchan
You know, you are really pathetic. Not only do you apparently not understand anything you read, you also pretend to be a mind reader. You're also a jerk. I think it's rather obvious to anyone reading here that you don't like me. I'm certain it stems from comments I've made in the past which have convinced you I'm a woman and a child hater. Instead of taking personal potshots, making wholly ignorant comments and generally nitpicking everything I write for the sake of your own overblown ego, why don't you just come out and say "Chris, I hate your guts". Come on, it'll make you feel better. Then shut up about it. I don't think anything more needs to be said. Happy holidays. Geesh!
Comment: #14
Posted by: Chris
Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:45 PM
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Nanchan - you are as bad as Lise B......don't you get tired of attacking and fighting. Get a life loser!
Comment: #15
Posted by: blippy
Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:50 PM
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chris, I don't hate you. I LOVE YOU! You make my day.
I hope you all the best for a happy holiday season.
Comment: #16
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:02 PM
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Re; nanchan's comment #10, she's flat-out lying, and anyone can check for themselves what I *actually* said about her having an opinion on gay issues.
@nanchan, I warned you that I would respond every time you distorted my words or acted hypocritically; and now you're just simply lying. You seem so desperate to keep the fighting going or to "win" your vendettas, you'll stoop to just about any underhanded tactic now, and I can't see why anyone would trust anything you say at this point.
This is yet *another* thread in which you throw the first insults out at another commenter. You don't just disagree with Chris, you have to insult him while you do; however, he didn't say anything insulting to you up to that point. You threw the first punch. *Again*. And once more, it's all in black and white for everyone to see for yourselves just what kind of poster you really are here.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Mike H
Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:15 PM
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Mike: my point was that chris is not equipped to deal with straight issues if I am not allowed to comment on gay issues.
Since I'm a straight woman, shouldn't I have a pretty good idea about why I think Chris's post is offensive? Well, I find his post offensive.
Enough said!
Comment: #18
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:57 PM
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LW1-
The only advice I can give you is to be grateful that you dodged a bullet. Can you imagine how much worse his "epiphany'" would have been if you had been married and eight months pregnant? This guy is a first-class schmuck, he doesn't have a heart, as in, zero empathy, the fact that he acts as this was all a walk in the park indicates probable narcissism and possibly sociopathy. Count your blessings - you did NOT marry him.
@Mike H
Everything you said makes perfect sense. And yes, there IS likely a lot more to this story. But... it doesn't excuse him being such a jerk in the way he broke up. What a coward.
@nanchan
"Didn't we agree that you shouldn't post on man/woman relationships since you are gay?"
Huh? I don't remember Chris agreeing to any such thing. And he doesn't have to. As much as I can disagree with him on many things, he has a right to his opinion, right or wrong, same as we all do.
Comment: #19
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:49 PM
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@nanchan, IF that really *was* your original point, you could have made it a lot more simply and clearly without falsely dragging my name into it; without so firmly attributing something to me that I never said.
Your post #10 above is a lie, pure and simple. I never said what you claimed I did. And when that was pointed out to you, instead of acknowledging that, or retracting the statement, or apologizing, your first instinct is to duck the issue and try to deflect attention yet again, going back to blaming Chris.
Comment: #20
Posted by: Mike H
Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:25 PM
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Yeah nanchan's attack was pretty out there. So Chris said negative things about the female in the relationship - it's quite a bizarre leap to take that as an attack on all women. Are you saying that if the genders were reversed, everyone would immediately switch who they think might be at fault? Whatever.
Anyway, I agree with Chris, I read into the letter immediately that the writer wasn't particularly supportive - her fiance just started a new job and was stressed about it, and her response is to bicker with him. "Refusing to open up", as she puts it, is a serious red flag in any relationship (whether she's trying to force him to share his feelings he doesn't have, or whether he really isn't sharing with her). It feels to me like they just weren't communicating at all any more, and he was tired of it. BUT I don't think any of us who think she might be at fault believe his response was acceptable.
LW2: That said, I agree with nanchan about LW2. The assumption that the shooting had to do with the woman meeting the man on the internet is silly, since the shooting was much later, so she'd had plenty of time to learn about him, meet his family etc. People jump into bed and randomly move in together all the time after meeting in bars etc. So, if he had shot her immediately after taking her home, then the moral would be don't be alone too quickly with someone you just met, but even that didn't happen.
Comment: #21
Posted by: Steve C
Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:31 PM
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@Lise, that's assuming her description of how he broke up is accurate. His family was shocked but then took him away on vacation? Really?
But... yeah, I don't disagree that, if it is as described, it's a pretty crappy way to break up with someone.
However -- again, playing devil's advocate... let's say that the arguing they were doing wasn't quite as innocent as she tries to make it out. Let's say that they've been arguing for weeks and it's really been bothering him. If their genders were reversed... if this were a man yelling at his girlfriend constantly, berating her, insulting her, and then claiming that their arguments are that serious... wouldn't the advice to this woman be to "pack your bags and get out of there right away"?
Maybe this is just his version of that.
So hard to say, though -- so much depends on her version of events, and because what she describes just seems to be so self-serving, so obviously missing some critical facts, I'm having trouble giving her much benefit of the doubt here.
Maybe this is a relationship that has been unraveling for a long time, and she was just completely unwilling to admit it, and it took him being a complete jerk to make it clear. No winners, really, and he probably was a bit of a jerk but she may have been a large part of the problem herself.
Comment: #22
Posted by: Mike H
Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:38 PM
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Re: Mike H
" His family was shocked but then took him away on vacation? Really?"
Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Clearly there is a lot missing here, with a few contradictions thrown in for good measure. It may very well be that they're both sadly lacking in whatever basic, and that they would have deserved each other!
And it may well be that she was clueless and in denial about what should have been pretty big writing on the wall. Who knows - since we only have her version. I would be very interested to hear his side of the story.
Comment: #23
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:19 PM
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Wow--all this fighting! Isn't posting on this forum supposed to be fun? Please calm down. Please?
Comment: #24
Posted by: Katie
Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:35 PM
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LW1 -
Another interpretation -
The guy got cold feet as they approached the wedding date.
He felt like, if he told her he felt that way, she would manipulate him into marrying her anyway. Maybe he was right or wrong but that's what he felt.
So he picked a couple of fights to give himself an excuse to leave.
So he was a jerk but maybe he did what he had to do.
Granted he could have grown a pair and stood up to her and told her he'd changed his mind about the wedding. And stood his ground when she cried and begged and apologized and yelled and promised him they could work it out. Instead he took it on the lam. Guy was a coward maybe but maybe he knew he'd cave in and figured this was the best way.
Then again she could have taken off her blinders a few years ago and realized that if 8 years had gone by with no wedding, there's not going to be one.
Very similar thing happened to my sister. Almost identical, except there were no marriage plans. She was with a guy, he kept trying to break it off with her. Every time he tried that, she would cry and tell him they could work it out and tell him they could work through the feelings and sort it out. Well they couldn't sort it out and he knew it. You never saw two people so unhappy together, this was like over five years, but she was clinging to him like he was her last chance in life. And he was nothing special, just a dopey guy. No matter what he did she would cry and tell him he had to stay and work it out and he'd give in. Finally he told her he was flying back home to visit his brother, he would see her in a couple of weeks. Then he called her from the other state and said that was it, he would not be back. So she called me up and she was mad because he was gone. But the whole family, I mean my whole family on our side, was going yay, the a-hole is gone, maybe now she can get on with her life.
And a couple of weeks later she was back on her feet and over him and glad he was gone. She looks at it now, she wishes he'd done that five years ago and saved her the time trying to make it work.
So, he was a jerk, but she was a goof to keep trying everything she could to "make it work." She didn't see it coming but the rest of us did. Both were goofed up.
Sounds to me like it's maybe a similar situation with the LW. No sense blaming anybody, but like Margo says, be glad the mess is over now and you dodged a bullet. You got a chance now to find somebody decent that you really fit with, not to keep trying to make
Now one comment about the straight-gay-man -woman thing. We're going to get some comments here people won't agree with. I think you have to live with it. I'm a straight guy. Most of the other guys posting here are gay. So, so what, they have their POV and I'm glad to read it even if I don't always see it the same way. So I have a straight guy's point of view, the women here have different points of view. So to nanchan and chris, maybe you can chill, guys. what's the point of making a stink about something the other person wrote. Doesn't matter who started it. If you don't agree with somebody don't bash them okay. Just say your piece and let them say theirs.
Comment: #25
Posted by: Mike Raymond
Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:51 PM
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LW1 -- I agree with everyone who has suggested there's a LOT more to this story that we're not getting. And it's not just a matter of not getting your "fiance's" side of the story, either -- it's also clear that you are not even telling all of your side. I love the parenthetical statement you make after you related that your fiance was concerned you would manipulate him into staying again. Your statement: "What would I have done, tied him to a chair?" Now, see, this statement is more telling than you realize. Tying someone to a chair is NOT manipulation -- that is flat-out trapping someone and holding him against his will. Manipulation involves no physical entrapment and is far more sneaky. I'd place huge bets that over the last years, you have manipulated him into staying with you when he really wanted to leave. You need to start being honest with yourself. You say you've been engaged for 8 years. As others have noted, no one is engaged for eight years. Have you honestly spent the last eight years planning a wedding? I'm betting not so much -- except, perhaps in your own head. Yes, your "fiance" has acted like a jerk, but I have a feeling he doesn't have a monopoly on "jerkhood" in this relationship.
@Chris -- I actually agree with much of your post, but I was confused by one thing in your post. You wrote:
"She's probably a narcissist. Or a single-child female (they both share traits.)"
When you say "single-child female" -- do you mean a single woman who has a child, or do you mean a woman who was an "only child" (i.e. has no siblings).
Comment: #26
Posted by: Lisa
Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:09 AM
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Re: Katie & Mike Raymond
As I said elsewhere - it takes to to make peace, but only one to make a war.
@Lisa
Yep.
P.S.: He meant a woman who is an only child.
Comment: #27
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:31 PM
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Several posters have made the point that there is information missing from this letter, and that we don't know enough to make a fair judgment in this case.
Perhaps, but I don't know why we would need it. This story is so common it isn't even funny. I've heard it over and over: a young man becomes engaged, eventually realizes it's a mistake and he doesn't want to get married, but doesn't tell his fiance until the last minute, when he suddenly bails on her and leaves her heartbroken. I once read an advice column letter about a young man who actually went through with the wedding and ditched his bride on their honeymoon! The letter was written by the mother of one of the groom's friends, who was all bent out of shape that the bride was about to ‘profit financially' from the fiasco. Disgusting.
It's common for certain men to be able to live on their own and hold down jobs, but have the maturity level of 8-year-olds as far as relationships go. I don't see how anyone could blame her for not seeing the break-up coming when the guy clams up and refuses to talk her. I also find it hard to believe that she was overbearing and manipulative when she was willing to give him some space, let him go stay with his folks for a while and even pack for him.
Of course, this guy wasn't looking for a temporary rest. He wanted out of the relationship, and instead of handling it like a man, the big baby runs home to Mommy and Daddy. He won't even answer her e-mails, hangs up on her when she calls (more cowardly, childish behavior), and she has to drag it out of him that he wants to break up. It doesn't help that his parents are willing to indulge him by taking him on vacation with them, so he doesn't have to face her. Sounds like they are willing enough to coddle him instead of telling him to act like the man he ought to be at thirty years of age.
He thought she would ‘manipulate him into staying'? Baloney. This is an immature, overgrown child with no backbone, no heart and no concern for anyone but himself. This woman is well rid of him. The only contact she should have with him from now on is in court. I'm sure he'd try to weasel out of whatever responsibilities he has from the purchase of their house and other issues, being the gem that he is.
Another thought: many people have made a lot of the fact that she mentioned that he was her fiance for eight years. I'm wondering if that might have been a mistake in the letter. Maybe she meant that they had been together for eight years and more recently became engaged. After all, if you do the math she was 21 and he was 22 eight years ago. Many posters (including me) have made errors of expression on this site; maybe she did, too.
Comment: #28
Posted by: JMG
Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:40 AM
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@Lise & Chris -- I did sort of assume that it was a reference to a woman who was an only child. One of the reasons I flagged the phrase is because the way it is written makes it sound like he meant specifically FEMALE only children, as opposed to any only child. I don't actually think Chris meant it to sound that way, but I wanted to ask about it. Perhaps he will still respond at some point. It's not a big deal, just curious.
@JMG -- Actually, your last paragraph indirectly contradicts the first sentence in your second paragraph. You say that we don't need more information at the beginning of your post. But in your last paragraph, you offer up a potentially missing piece of information that could some posters' minds about what is going on here. Because you are right -- it's very possible that the LW really meant to say, "we've been together for eight years and got engaged last year," or something like that. I can't speak for the others, but I know that would have eliminated at least one "she's not being honest with herself" red flag for me. And for me, that was a pretty big red flag.
Yes, it's certainly common for certain men (and women, for that matter, but if you are suggesting this happens more frequently with men, I agree with you) to live on their own and hold down jobs but be completely immature when it comes to relationships. Here's what's just as common: these men manage to find women who are as delusional and desperate to be coupled off as those men are immature. Because a woman with her $hit together wouldn't put up with it. He's a man-child who wants a steady lay (and may even want all the trappings of a real relationship) but doesn't want to commit to forever, lest something better could eventually come along. He's happy to stay in the relationship, possibly for decades, as long as that "something better" never comes along. It's possible he has actually wanted out for quite some time, but the same immaturity that keeps him from committing to being with her also keeps him from committing to NOT being with her.
All of which matches up so nicely with the woman-child (and yes, there are men who do this, too, but it's more commonly the woman) who deludes herself into thinking she's found "the one" and will turn a blind eye to any faults in either him or the relationship, will pretend that constant bickering about "just everyday life stuff" is not a red flag (oh, and she won't call it "constant" -- but that's what it probably is) because she believes being in a relationship that isn't working is better than holding out for one that does work because what if that never happens, and isn't being in ANY relationship better than being alone?
So, when man-child finally tries to man up and get out of the relationship, woman-child cries and begs and pleads for him to stay, promising that they can work it out. Man-child's brief moment of being adult flies out the window, and he stays, until finally he realizes he really does want out, but not being enough of a man to break up with her like an adult, because he cannot bear to watch woman-child go through the crying, begging and pleading again and doesn't trust himself to remain an adult in the face of her tears, he lies to her about just needing a little time and then never returns.
Look -- the fiance surely doesn't deserve a medal. He's a man-child who needs to grow up, and the way he's handled this is beyond crappy. But the LW is hardly the perfect, sainted innocent victim who did everything right and still got martyred by the evil fiance. It almost always takes two to tango.
Comment: #29
Posted by: Lisa
Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:25 AM
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@Mike Raymond -- thanks for your insight -- great post!
Comment: #30
Posted by: Lisa
Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:13 AM
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@JMG, Lisa's post #29 nicely discusses some of the reasons why I still feel it's important that lots of the story is missing. I think, given the inconsistencies in the LW's story, it's really premature to blame the boyfriend in this situation as fully as Margo seems to want to.
I suspect that LW is equally, if not *more*, immature, just in a different way; and that she bears a lot more of the responsibility for the relationship ending the way it did than she's willing to accept.
Comment: #31
Posted by: Mike H
Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:16 AM
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Anytime a person has no idea that his or her relationship is messed up to the point of the other person completely abandoning them, something is wrong and the leave-r generally bears responsibility for that. If LW1's ex stayed for 8 years, he hadn't mentioned that he was seriously unhappy. If he mentioned it, she ignored it, and he still stayed for almost a decade, it's still his fault. I agree that there's surely much more to this story, but there's no excuse for his behavior, and no matter how horrible it was, he should have left earlier or at least taken steps to repair the relationship before leaving her to deal with the wreckage of her ruined life. If he had packed up and left a month, or even a year, into their relationship, I would buy the "she's a manipulative shrew that gave him no choice but to behave this way" argument, but after 8 years, he not only checked out of a fully formed life together, but he also allowed her to cripple her future relationships by not addressing or even giving her a chance to acknowledge the behavior that eventually drove him away, whatever it was, and that was unconscionably cruel.
Comment: #32
Posted by: Nichole
Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:03 PM
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@Nichole, but what if he's been begging her to get into couples counseling for years but she ignored it because she's in denial of their problems? What if what she calls "bickering" about "everyday stuff" is actually daily fights where she berates him cruelly for not doing what she wants? What if after years of verbal abuse this was the only step he could take to save himself?
I think if LW was a woman who was complaining about her boyfriend yelling at her daily, belittling her, making her life a living hell, and ignoring all her attempts to go into counseling or improve their relationship, most commenters would tell her to "pack up and leave" and not say another word. Maybe that's what happened here!
Just because in the current situation it was a *man* who left abruptly doesn't mean that he might not have just as good reasons for doing it that way. Maybe you're right, thats entirely possible, he could simply be a creep -- but given that he stuck it out for 8 years, and some of the details in her letter seem fishy, I'm just not ready to agree that he's the only one to blame here.
Comment: #33
Posted by: Mike H
Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:21 AM
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Re: Mike H
Maybe that's what hal;pened her indeed, but we have no way of knowing. She probably shares some of the responsibility as, like you said, some of the details leave room for questioning, but I tend to agree with Nichole that it doesn't excuse what he did. The fact that she may have deserved it, still doesn't excuse what he did.
Comment: #34
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:28 AM
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@Lise and Nichole -- I won't claim to speak for Mike H or anyone else here, but I do not believe anyone is actually suggesting that the LW "deserved" to be treated as she did, and I don't believe anyone is "excusing" the fiance for how he treated her. For my own part, I was merely pointing out that, from what we have to go on from the letter, it sounds like this was one of those co-dependent relationships between two not-so-grown-up adults where both parties are not doing a good job of communicating what they really want/need/feel. Telling the LW that the fiance is just a big jerk and she's well rid of him -- while it may well be true (and I think it is) -- it is only one part of the story. And if no one suggests to the LW that she might bear some responsibility here and point out some of the potential issues on her end of things, she will just go out and do the same thing over and over again. Telling her he's a jerk and she's well rid of him is a short-term kindness but likely doesn't really help her much. Helping her see and deal with her own issues is a long-term kindness, as it potentially helps do more than just move on from this relationship but also to grow so she won't repeat the same mistakes in her future relationships.
Comment: #35
Posted by: Lisa
Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:52 AM
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@Lise, I'm not really excusing the LW's man so much as pointing out there's all sorts of variants to this situation, and one possibility is that LW pushed the fiance to this extreme.
I also really want people to understand the gender biases that may be working here, in that if a woman walked out on a verbally abusive man/fiance, there wouldn't be many people blaming *her* for leaving *him*, even if he was left with canceling a wedding, a mortgage, etc.
I just want to be fair to the situation -- (1) LW *may* be leaving a lot of her own actions in this out where this guy may not be a creep for doing this. OR (2) she may be somewhat to blame, but that doesn't completely excuse the guy. OR (3) she may be entirely innocent and the guy is scum.
But based on her letter and the facts presented (plus the gaps she left out), I'm thinking it's more likely option 2 than option 1 or 3.
Comment: #36
Posted by: Mike H
Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:20 AM
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I really take exception with a lot of these comments about LW1 being "rabid" for marriage and not really engaged for 8 years, or that she should have seen writing on the wall after a long engagement. He is 30 years old. She could easily be 26 or 27 meaning they got engaged young, were possibly childhood sweethearts and were waiting for one of them to finish school, or save enough so they could buy a house. A lot of young couples do that.
I was engaged for 6 years and the boy proposed to me on our high school graduation. He walked out on my and left me with his debts and mess to clean up a month after I graduated college, since that was the timing we were waiting for to actually get married. He decided "he wanted to try other things in life". Both families were stunned. In the end it was best for me and I'm now happily married while he's still a bum and never finished college or got a "real" job. But this girl could have been in a similar situation and no, it is not necessarily her fault.
Interestingly enough I met my husband online and we moved in a month after the first meeting. That was 7 years ago, so those relationships can work out well, despite the outcry of "how could you do that" we initially got.
This column really hit a nerve and the comments are just vicious.
Comment: #37
Posted by: MM
Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:48 AM
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@MikeH
"one possibility is that LW pushed the fiance to this extreme."
That's what I meant when I said she may have deserved it.
But the letter gives zero evidence that there was any abuse going on - of course the LW being the jilted party, she likely wouldn't admit to that. But if there was any hint of this, you can rest certain that I wouldn't spare her. Abuse is abuse is abuse, and I don't care who does it. Like I said, I would be very interested in hearing his side of the story.
Comment: #38
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:53 AM
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@Lise, yep -- without hearing the other side of the story, I'm reluctant to make him out to be the bad guy. Or the *only* bad guy, I guess.
Comment: #39
Posted by: Mike H
Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:46 AM
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