Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW!: The Annies are right, something doesn't add up here. Two things come into my mind: 1)I would think that the lawyer who handled your divorce could help you with the visitation issue. Why did you have to retain these other lawyers to the point where you're going broke? 2) I suggest following up with CPS to determine whether the teachers, therapist and pediatrician actually called them. There may be a chance they didn't which could account for their lack of action. Either way, follow the Annies advice to call the state and federal hotlines. Best of luck to you and your son - - You're going to need it.

LW2: The Annies are right. You can do what you can for your two daughters but you have no say in what your husband does for his three children. You should look at it from the standpoint that you are still single. Your daughters should receive no more or no less whether you are married or not. In other words, your marriage should have no bearing on what they should expect from you while you are alive and after you are gone. While they should not be penalized, they should not be rewarded either.

LW1 -
There have unfortunately been several instances where CPS has proved woefully incompetent, lackadaisical and deadly inefficient. If the resources the Annies suggested don't suffice, then I suggest you DO go on the run. There is a child's safety involved here. You gotta do what you gotta do.

In the meantime, document, document, document. Take pictures. Get witnesses. Call the cops when he gets back to you black and blue and get THEM to file a report. Make sure you keep all of those records safe and sound all in the same place, as you're sure to need all of them at one point.

LW3 -
It is entirely possible your are the exception that confirms the rule. I sure hope not! I guess that's one of those countless things where mileage will vary...

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the second letter on 10 April 2013.

L1: I'm with the Annies, this doesn't add up, CPS doesn't follow through after teachers, therapist AND a pediatrician called?
I've mentioned that I have a sister who has mental health issues; she repeatedly calls the police to report various crimes and abuse that she has witnessed, but when they asked for more info and/or evidence, she can only say "I saw it. I SAW it." The thing that makes me suspicious is the scabies - a dozen times? And no one cares? I really feel like the kid might have an allergy that makes him itch - or maybe she just sees him scratch himself - and she announces "scabies!!" - I've also seen that type of behavior first hand. I don't want to dismiss LW1 completely, it's certainly possible that what she says is true and the system has provided an epic fail, but all that evidence and reports, but CPS and judges don't care? I think she might be "overprotective", to put a polite spin on it. If not, then like Lise says, document, document, document.

LW1 - I agree with the Annies and the others BTL who say there's something VERY wrong with this situation. The problem is that it's hard to tell where the problem lies. It seems almost impossible that CPS has ignored calls from the child's physician, school, and therapist. Also, the LW says she's been to court and has spent all her money on "lawyers" (plural), but doesn't indicate why she went to court. Is she attempting to keep her ex from having visitation and gain total custody? If so, why isn't the attorney who handled her divorce involved? It sounds as though she's used more than one lawyer to take her case to family court, and I'm wondering what kind of evidence she presented. Why weren't the people who reported the abuse to CPS called as witnesses if she didn't have proof of her own?
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Assuming everything in the letter is true, she should be taking pictures and documenting everything with dates that would correspond with the visits with the ex-husband, as well as possibly recording her son's pleading not to go with his father because he's afraid, then take her evidence to the authorities, as well as her attorney and CPS. Child abuse isn't just a case for CPS - it's a criminal offense.

LW1 - Is your ex a judge or the chief of police? Seriously...something is very wrong here. How could CPS ignore calls from teachers, a therapist and a pediatrician?? I'm surprised you haven't called the police every time your son came home with black eyes and bruises to report it. Perhaps you should start doing that. I'd tell you to run, but the problem is that if they catch you, you could be brought up on kidnapping charges and then the state would likely hand over your child to his father.

Start calling everybody and anybody. Get that monster away from your child! Good luck.

LW2 - If you spend on yours and he spends on his, there's nothing you can do about that. You give what you can give. If you two spend jointly and buy jointly, then you set a budget, ie, each person gets $20 spent on them.

As for inheritence, divide the percentage between 14 people. If you have, say, $100K to leave all 14, then each of them get about $7140.

LW1--When CPS rushes to investigate a parent for spanking, I find it hard to believe that they aren't moving to remove custody from your ex-husband after the boy repeatedly returns from visits black and blue and suffering from PTSD. Indeed, something isn't adding up. Regardless, it is your duty to protect the boy from abuse. First, if you haven't already done so, photograph and document EVERYTHING that happens while your boy is with your ex-husband. Another option is to force the courts hands by refusing to allow your husband access. If he's truly abusing his son and he knows you have documentation, he may hesitate taking the matter back to court. Of course your final option is to flee but if you do, you'll most assuredly lose custody once you're caught.

LW2--This isn't rocket science. Treat all your children equally regardless of their apparent wealth. Period. To do otherwise is asking for unnecessary drama.

LW1: Did it ever occur to you that when your son came home the VERY FIRST TIME with bruises and a black eye after visiting his father to call the police and not only reporting it, but having your ex arrested for an attack on your son? With a Police Report in hand, your new attorney (and I say new, because sounds like one you have is useless), can go into court and have the visitation severed until such time as the Court feels your son is no longer in danger. They can even order supervised visitation. Further, if your son says he does not want to visit with your father, you have every right to listen to your son, keeping him out of harms way. If my child came home from a visit with an ex, and with the injuries you described, there would be no question that the visitation rights would be severed immediately by me, and if the ex has a problem with that he could take me back into court where I would have the evidence to prove the abuse. TAKE PICTURES. You are your son's only advocate.

LW1-I echo what everyone else BTL is saying. I too am confused as to after multiple calls to CPS, that they say there is no abuse going on. I know CPS doesn't have the best of reputation for acting fast but I can't imagine them blatantly ignoring calls from pediatricians and teachers. Sometimes in a nasty divorce one spouse will accuse the other of physical or sexual abuse when there is no such abuse going on, which makes the real cases harder to prove or to be taken serious. I know this from first-hand experience.

When my daughter was 9 years old, she came to me and told me something horrific that her father did. I was first in shock and was hoping she was mistaken and did not even know where to start so I called the Child Abuse Hotline and they handled everything from that point on (including a physical exam and counseling services for my daughter). At first the police were reluctant to believe us because so many people (mostly women) accuse their ex of unfounded abuse. You could tell by their body language that they didn't believe us. It just took one interview from the sexual crimes unit for them to realize that she (daughter) was telling the truth.

LW2- Ditto on what everyone else is saying.

LW1, if this letter is true, then you. are. an. idiot. It is up to YOU to protect your son. Either you are delusional, and none of this is really happening, or you are fabricating abuse to get more from your ex, or you are the abuser and trying to pin the blame on your ex, or you should be ashamed to call yourself a mother. Where is your mother bear instinct? You blindly keep sending him back to an abuser...for what? Why?
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It says teachers, pediatricians and therapists have ALL reported this to children's aid and nothing has happened. Where does it say YOU !!!!! his MOTHER!!!! reported it to children's aid?
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Nowhere. Why haven't you? Then YOU might then actually know why they haven't followed up. Instead of asking THEM, you write to an advice columnist??? Seriously? Why didn't you call children's aid with your question??? While waiting for the answer, your son has suffered weeks more of abuse. You could have called children's aid in 5 minutes.
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Did it never occur to you, if in fact what you say is true, that it was time to take matters into your own hands? Surely you have documented what happened, right? Surely you took photos of your kid with bruises, black eyes, and scratches. You have the doctor's reports. You have the therapist's confirmation of PTSD. You have a half-dozen or more people claiming they went to children's aid. And you have children's aid saying this isn't abuse. If all that is true, then go to the MEDIA. Show them the evidence and show them what children's aid said. Make a youtube video. Show them the photos of your battered son, the doctor's reports, and children's aid claims that isn't abuse. Ask it to go viral. Put the photos on your facebook page. Put up the doctor's reports, show the report or recording that children's aid says this is not abuse. Ask people to share your posts. Next time your son is crying about seeing Daddy and how Daddy hurts him, make videos, and post them. Everywhere. Trust me, your son will not mind his privacy being invaded as much as he minds his own mother sending him back to his abuser.
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It's time to pull up your socks and start being a REAL mother. Call children's aid YOURSELF RIGHT NOW and record the conversation. Then you will know what to do next. Your child needs you. And get yourself into therapy too, to find out why you would have allowed this to happen a second time while failing to act.

LW1: The only thing I can think of is that, as Michelle suggests in #6, the ex-husband is a police chief or a judge. It's also possible his current wife works for CPS (wouldn't surprise me) or that he has enough respect in the community that ... "Oh no, that *nice* man could NEVER be such a mean, sadistic person, particularly to a little boy that's his own son."

Something IS wrong, and if indeed my theory is correct that the wife works for (or is highly influential with) her local CPS, her supervisor ought to be contacted AT ONCE!

Meanwhile, I'd move from the community. Either that, or do what j (#8) recommends – get blatant proof that this is happening. Sooner or later, someone is bound to believe you, and all the money, all the power, all the influence of this SADISTIC, SATANIC MAN and his BITCH OF A WIFE won't mean a thing in court.

LW1: I think the annies printed this letter just so we could see some of the far-fetched stories that arrive in their mailbox. It's not the child that needs to see a therapist.

LW2, you don't say how long you've been married, whether you've been a family since the kids were small or whether you married more recently, after the kids were grown--a key point. Either way, you are not a "blended" family, or at the very least, you didn't leave the blender on long enough.
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If you've been a family since the kids were young, then continuing to make the distinction between "his" and "mine" indicates you never fully bonded with his kids, or with your husband, and you still have jealousy issues and problems accepting the fact he has children and a life before you. If that's the case, you need to learn to accept his children as your own and treat all five equally if you ever really want to be a blended family. Ditto for gifts--treat them all equally.
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If you married after the kids were pretty much grown or on their own, then you are simply a married couple with grown children and there should be no problem with inheritances or division of assets--you should each leave what you brought into the marriage to your own children and arrange to evenly split what you accumulate between the two of you (once you are both gone) to all five. Talk to an estate planner.
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As for your implication that less successful children should get larger gifts or more in the will, PLEASE DON'T. First, this will ensure you drive a wedge between your children for life, and ensure some harbor bitter feelings for you. But more importantly, I have seen this backfire--people can experience reversals of fortune throughout their lives. Marriages fail. New marriages form. Businesses go belly-up. Businesses soar. Investments plummet; investments pay off. The child who is less wealthy today could become quite wealthy a few years from now, while the one who is wealthy now may end up at the poverty line. Three times, I've seen people leave more to the "poorer" children in their wills, only to have those late-blooming children come into wealth on their own, either before or after the parent dies. In one case, the child finally got her act together, got promoted, married wealthy, and before her mother could change the will, she died. The "needy" daughter, who was no longer needy, inherited 80% of her mother's estate, while her sister got 20%. A few years later, in 2008, the 20% sister lost job and her home, and got divorced. She is still struggling while her sister is extremely well-off. Needless to say, they don't speak to each other.

I am finding LW1's letter highly implausible, more like a movie than actual life. The first thing her lawyer would have told her is to document the abuse with pictures and statements from people involved. A 4 year old child who goes to a therapist? A 4 year old with teachers? How can this child be diagnosed with PTSD? Nothing about this letter rings true. I believe it is the court who would require CPS to step in. Not believing any of this.
LW2, you lost me at the triple-digit income.

LW1: I have some neighbors that you can hear the kids screaming at night like they are being skinned alive. I called the police on a few occasions, and overheard while the dad smoothed things over. I called CPS, and they said that unless I witness the abuse, they can't take action. This sadly doesn't sound out of the realm of the possible to me.

Why doesn't this woman call CPS herself? Why does she kept sending this child to this man's house? Why doesn't she confront her ex with the police? What the heck is wrong with her? Does she hate children or something?

My bullshit meter went off the scale when I read LW1. And do you people who are becoming hysterical on behalf of this crazy woman (the influence of this SADISTIC, SATANIC MAN and his BITCH OF A WIFE ...!) realize that you are exactly the kind of one-volt brained crowds that Shakespeare portrayed so well as being easily manipulated?

Indeed, nothing adds up. CPS doesn't listen to anyone? She's had multiple lawyers and nothing happens? Baloney! Children can get bruises (fall off a tricycle) and scratches (playing in a field, messing with a cat) without it necessarily being a SATANIC MAN AND HIS BITCH OF A WIFE. The fact that this so-called mother is taking a 4-year old to a therapist at all indicates to me that she is quite possibly planting the seeds of fear in her son and then reaping the fear he plays back to her. And OF COURSE, now that the public has a new fancy psychological ailment (PTSD) EVERYbody has to have it - even a four-year-old.

There should be some investigating done, all right. And it should start with this woman and her wild accusations. And please note, raving masses, I'm not talking about ACTUAL and REAL child abuse which is a horrendous thing. But equally dangerous to small children are the hysterical and imaginative rantings of unhinged and bitter parents.

wow, most of us agree on something.

I'm enjoying this bonding moment.

LW1 – While I am not a fan of CPS, I find it a bit suspicious that the courts and CPS would turn their cheeks to abuse that was allegedly being reported by several people – including school officials and therapists. I once had the pleasure of knowing a nut-job who thrived on making false accusations about people. She was bonified crazy. I am curious if this woman is too.
LW2 – I feel all kids should be treated equally.

LW1 -

If it doesn't make sense, it's not true. And nothing about this makes sense. Scabies a dozen times in a four-year-old's life? Black eyes? Bruised? Scratched? PTSD? CPS is ignoring calls from teachers, therapists, pediatrician, and mother (who can provide photographic and testimony evidence of the abuse)? No. This makes no sense. CPS does sometimes not react adequately but that usually means something along the times of "I suspected my brother of abusing his son and CPS did a visit but found no evidence of abuse so they stopped investigating".

So yeah, either this entire letter is made up or LW1 is exaggerating, or LW1 is nuts.

LW2 -

Why are your grown children receiving gifts, anyway? As adults, you should all be exchanging token gifts (a tin of home made cookies, a tshirt with a funny saying on it, that book you know he wants). If you all insist on exchanging "real" gifts, well, everyone should set their own budget and stick to it. I have a rich aunt and uncle - do you think I got the same gifts as their kids did? No... Of course not.

As for inheritance - probably, one of you will die first and then all of the assets will be merged and can then be distributed equally.

Really, I think you're all making this a bigger issue than it has to be.

On the flip side of LW1 and my suspicions regarding the integrity of her allegations, below is a post from Yahoo today. It was under an article about the girls they were rescued in Ohio...

I am chilled to the bone. This is why it takes a Village to raise a child. And if there is any possible truth to the LW's story, I pray that he receives help soon.

"There once was a little girl, 14 years old. Same height, build & hair as my daughter. Friends with my daughter. I often mistook her as my daughter, from around town, seeing her down the street or something. Her mom was abusive. The girl asked if she could come live with my daughter and I. I said yes but she never came. 6 months later she lay sleeping in her upstairs bed and her mom poured gas in a circle around her, lit it, then went shopping. The girl woke up on fire. Firemen came but didn't know she was in there. They went back in once neighbors said the girl is still in there but it was too late. They carried poor Robin's smoldering body out, all the firemen in tears. Even just the night before that, Robin had been messaging my daughter about fear for her safety. Yet, we had to beg police to read the emails because no one wanted to believe a mom could do this to their child. 6 weeks later they finally arrested the mom. She's serving life now.Though she wasn't my daughter, the fact that she and I were friends via my daughter and the fact that she for all purposes looked like my daughter and the fact that she reached out to me for protection and I failed her... it changed me forever. Her murder haunts me to this day. She didn't just reach out to me but also to her church, counselors and the principal at school, and even to police, regarding her abuse at home. We ALL failed her. I cannot shake the image of her trying to lift her head to yell to us for help, one last time, in that ring of smoke and fire. We didn't answer, again. That house and barn have been torn down but it stands like a towering inferno in my mind, forever. It's better, when I ride my bicycle past that property, and see a field. It's better than seeing the burned out shell of that house of horror. But more important than that the incident kindled in me a spark of hope and effort to try to help those in trouble now. Maybe out of guilt, maybe out of sympathy, or maybe out of love. Whatever it is I kind of made a commitment to myself to never be un-involved, to always be a part of something bigger than myself that is beneficial to others. And that's why I have such confusion and stress over people who are so harmful to others, on purpose. We're all imperfect and have been less than helpful or even hurtful at times, but maybe we can put our hearts together and out-do evil doers. What's say let's give it a try? Thanks for listening"

Anji- I didn't see that yet. Thanks for sharing it.

Re: Anji

I don't think you have to be too chilled about that story because it kind of sounds like BS to me... Fire fighters don't just not check the bedrooms assuming that no one else is in there. Just hanging around out front till neighbours come up and say "btw someone's still in there."?? How did the neighbours know she was in there, anyway? I also doubt that all the firemen would be crying on their way out with her - adrenaline and fear has a funny way of delaying the emotional response.

I'm not saying that that has never happened but it reads like one of those BS chain emails I get from time to time ("when she woke up from heart transplant surgery her bf wasn't there so she asked her mom n dad where he was and he said 'who do u think donated ur heart?'"... or remember this one: "she asked if he would love her forever and he said no so she ran away crying and got hit by a car and when he went to her body he whispered 'i'll love u 5ever which is more than 4ever.'" haha).

Anji, I wouldn't deny the possibility of any horrible thing that people can do to each other, but could you please identify the source of that story? It has all the hallmarks of a heart-tugging, badly-written morality tale that generally finds its way onto the Scopes de-bunking list. Just curious.

Re: Michelle #6
"Is your ex a judge or the chief of police?"
Actually, he could indeed be, and that would make the local authorities very reluctant to proceed further, especially in a small town. Such things have been known to happen. I remember when I was assaulted by the person we rented the space from at the Louiseville festival, and the provincial police officer was doing his darndest best to convince me not to press charges. Louiseville is a small place, everybody knows everybody and they have this clannish mentality where locals are right and outsiders are wrong no matter what - among other severe flaws in their thinking.

This being stated, Steve C (#4) does have a point also, especially since he also has first-hand experience on one of the reasons that could explain why it doesn't add up.

And here's another one: some people do have a case, but are very unfocused and not at all articulate. They sink themselves going towards emotional arguments rather than facts, get sidetracked with details that are not relevant, and therefore sound like real nut cases. I've seen that too. If really the situation is as she states, then she'll have plenty to document, which should provide her with a better case.

@Chris #7
"When CPS rushes to investigate a parent for spanking, I find it hard to believe that they aren't moving to remove custody from your ex-husband after the boy repeatedly returns from visits black and blue and suffering from PTSD."
I don't. It wouldn't be the first time I see someone AND a government outfit be this dysfuntional and do everything opposite of common sense.

@JustBecause #9
"It just took one interview from the sexual crimes unit for them to realize that she (daughter) was telling the truth."
What if they had been so intent on not believe either of you that your daughter had never gotten that interview? I'm sure this happens many times, especially when the man accused is known in the community, has plenty of money, and is "very well respected" - meaning he's highly connected. Many people will not want risking their career going after someone like that and will prefer to "not believe" the allegations - or outright accuse the mother herself when there is physical evidence.

CPS have been known to "lose" some children, who ended up being killed by their abusers, which is how the case broke out in the public media. There will be some very competent, dedicated and courageous agents of course, but as an outfit, they don't have a very good reputation.

@Jane #10
Very good idea about uTube. But she may need help for that. Some people don't even know how to take a picture, and have no apparatus to do so - no camera and no cell phone. Perhaps this is what's lacking here.

@Julie #15
There you go.

@Volpe #16
If she hated children, she wouldn't be writing in. It may be that she is very technologically unsavvy and doesn't even know how to take a picture (my friend Shirley doesn't know how, and she has a cell phone that can), perhaps she is very uneducated and uninformed, not overly bright and not good at expressing herself. There are a LOT of people like that, and they'll not sound like they have a legitimate complaint even when they do.

Of course, it may also be that she is crazy as a loon and making it up as she goes along like Steve C suggests, but if she has taken the child to a therapist herself, I can't see that this therapist would be as crazy as her. These people are trained to separate the grain from the chaff, both with delusional adults and with children as young as four, and if she says the kid has PTSD and saw enough to put in a call herself, I see no reason to not believe HER.

It wouldn't be the first time CPS refuses to act on a real case. And then when sometime terrible happens, they wring their hands and wail about how understaffed and overworked they are. Just the child's complaints will not be taken seriously because you can make a 4 year-old say whatever you want. But pictures are another matter, and the police should view that seriously. In turn, CPS might take a police report a little more seriously.

If the woman is not making this up, then there will be plenty to document, which is what she should do ASAP. Witnesses attesting to the fact that the child had the bruises the minute he came in fron his father's and not before would also be a big help. You see, she may be incapable of thinking of things like that. RE3ally if swhe is not making this ul and documented evidence is still not enough to get CPS to move, then what Jane says - go to the media. Local news are always looking for a juicy story. A kid being abused and CPS doing nothing sure sounds worthy of the 6 o'clock news, but you gotta be able to back up your claims!

Can't say much that hasn't already been said today except to advise LW1 that she should use a camera that time and date stamps photos and take a photo immediately BEFORE as well as AFTER each of her son's visits with the father. That's about the ONLY way she can prove the injuries occurred after he'd left her home and before he returned.

LW1 - She should go to the local police. They can do a true investigation and cross report to CPS if there are truly signs of abuse.
As for the people stating she needs to keep the kid and not allow for visitation, that is dumb. All that will do is give more ammo to the father to get full custody.
There are lots of people that use CPS to assist them with child custody disputes. They will have friends and family call and call and call and whoever else they can get. There are no repercussions for filing false reports, unlike reporting crimes to police. By taking the child to the police station, it shows that it is believed to be a true crime and they can take pictures of the bruising and other injuries. A police report in family court means a lot more than a CPS report hearsay rules etc. The cross report to CPS will ensure they will have to act. If it is the one parent's way of getting full custody from the other, then she will get in trouble.

LW 1 - I also wonder if the husband is influential in that town. I live in a medium sized city, and things like that go on here. A friend went through an awful divorce from her abusive policeman husband. It was all but impossible to get them to arrest him for abuse when he beat up her son (who had to go to the ER with awful injuries.) He also dragged her into court again and again on trumped up charges that SHE was an unfit mother, costing her money for a lawyer that she could not afford. And on and on, and he got away with it because he was on the police force. They said they didn't want to fire him because then she would get no support payments, and that is true. And because of her chronic, debilitating illness, she cannot work. It is always more complicated than you would imagine.

Re: Zoe & Maggie Lawrence
It is exactly people like you who make it possible for children to be abused and murdered, because you call BS on everything. What about the girls in Ohio, is that is that an urban legend too? You can be sure there are plenty of people out there who knew something and called it BS. I was going to mention my mother, but I suppose you think this is BS too.

This is a question for those that say he may be a high powered person in the community (like a policeman, judge or such). I know that the Annies sometimes edit out things but I would think that if he were one of these things that the LW would say that and the Annieswould not edit it out because it's such an important part of what's going on.

Re: Lise Brouillette, She might be inarticulate and unfocused but I am guessing her Lawyers are not, nor are the 'teachers', nor the therapist, nor the doctor. Even in a small town you would find it extremely difficult to disprove all of these experts. Her lawyers would have been prepared to show proof as would the doctor. Go to a doctor with a child this beaten and see if they don't call CPS or the police. This whole senerio is not at all believable. To many experts involved not to be taken seriously. CPS couldn't keep this one contained even if the step parent were the director and the father were sheriff.

Re: Lise Brouillette #29, These examples you gave are not the same as the LW's claim. You didn't have teachers, doctors, lawyers and therapist testifying for you. The girls in Ohio didn't have these experts at their disposal either. She is claiming ALL of these people called and witnessed the abuse. The therapist even 'diagonised' the child with PTS, if you believe her. Not at all the same as you or the Ohio girls.

Re: Lise B

Oh, Lise, give me a break. It's people like YOU that believe these stupid things and freak out over them that dilute how much the rest of us care. I can only give so many f*cks a day - if I give half of them to made up stories like this, I don't have many left to give to real people, capisce?

It was written exactly like a BS chain forward and parts of it don't make sense. I even googled it and couldn't find anything. I conceded it was possible, but the account that Anji posted isn't true. If it's based on a true event, it is exaggerated and dramatized.

So yeah, I will care a lot more about the three girls recently freed because, well, that really did happen. If you're so sure, it's true, find me a source that proves the story posted by Anji is true and supports the telling of it (crying firefighters etc) and I will GLADLY retract my statement.

As for your mother, I am sure she exists and is not BS. I would be more skeptical if you told me you were fabricated in a lab or something.

RE: LW1

While it is clear to most that LW1 is either exaggerating, lying or just plain crazy, Lise Brouillette and a few of the other manhaters still find excuses to blame her ex-husband. Clearly the man must have incredible sway and power to have complaints from his ex-wife, teachers, pediatricians and therapists dismissed.

Certainly, it is more believable that the man is corrupt, or perhaps a mind-bending Jedi, than the woman is full of poo.

MEN. They're to blame for EVERYTHING.

LW1: I'm horrified at your situation, whether you are telling the truth or not. Unfortunately, I've seen many sides of this situation, where a friend of a friend explained carefully to her child that he was being abused by his father and stepmother. After that, this boy saw himself being abused in situations where he didn't get his own way or someone had the gall to suggest he was mistaken. Or they told him "No, you can't play video games all night".

And I've also seen a family torn apart by false allegations and then having their two children abused sexually in a foster home, when it was reported, then it was ignored.

I also personally witnessed a woman giving false information to the police, she had a real estate sales flyer, a phone book and was telling a story about how her children were three and four and being desperately abused and the people in CPS had a child sex ring going. She told them the names of people in the phone book, real estate agents and how she was being kept from her babies. This woman was in her sixties and way past childbearing age. I understand that drugs, alcohol and homelessness can take its toll on a body, but there is no way that woman carried a baby and gave birth anytime in the previous ten years at least.

LW2: Try giving them all homemade gifts. My mother is a quilter. I make beaded jewelry and have just gotten into making felt toys. Who can argue if they all get something you made with care and style?

Jeez Lise- A little rough on Maggie & Zoe, don't you think? The story they are calling BS on does sound like it could be one of those fake ones that are meant to tug on the heart strings. I looked after Anji posted it and I couldn't find it. I was going to check it out on Snopes.

@ZOE: " I can only give so many f*cks a day"

PLEASE...I have to know...how many?

Re: Maggie Lawrence
After re-reading your post #24, I can see you mitigated your question. I'm removing your name from my address on post #29, which is now addressed to Zoe only. Sorry about that.

Re Anji's post
I'm well aware of the horrors that people can subject others to, but I'm inclined to doubt Anji's story too. I'd be more than willing to apologize for doubting it if someone can provide proof of the incident, which should have been well covered at the time in the local papers and on TV in whatever area it occurred. However, the dramatic way in which the account is written does make me wonder if it isn't some type of fiction meant to elicit sympathy from the reader. Please provide dates and location so that it can be checked out.

Re: Gerhardt

Well, it depends on the day. How much sleep I've had, the weather, how many f*cks I gave yesterday. Between 1 and 10, I suppose.

Re: Lise B

Being guilted into feeling sympathy for a fake story (or an exaggerated, dramatized "true" story) does not do any favours to actual victims. Reports of abuse should be taken seriously by the authorities and witnesses! But a bunch of internet advice column readers reacting to and speculating about improbable stories with no proof or source helps NO ONE and can in fact hinder and hurt the people involved.

Your wrong-headed indignation might feel good, but serves only to get gullible people in a tizzy over a story that no one can verify.

Re: Penny #31 & 32
Then it is possible it involves a man in high position in a very small town. That is definitely possible. I am just v-e-r-y r-e-l-u-c-t-a-n-t to call BS on child abuse. There have been so many cases of children dying, or being subjected to molestation for YEARS, while a lot of people had been told, but refused to believe.

@Zoe
"I can only give so many f*cks a day - if I give half of them to made up stories like this, I don't have many left to give to real people, capisce?"
I didn't know the "f*cks" in your heart were like a bag of candy... I hope your friends and family are not too numerous, one too many and you might run out of love! ;-D

Frankly, it doesn't even matter whether the account anji posted was itself true or not. The point that is relevant to the subject at hand is that things like that DO happen.

@JustBecause #36
I retracted putting Maggie on that and I hadn't seen any posts past #30 when I did, btw. As for Zoe, the first story she is calling BS on is the LW's.

I do have a problem with people who are ever so skeptical that they go meh on everything, nothing is ever true, everything is always exaggerated or an outright lie and everybody is nuts. The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

Steve C was the first one to raise the possibility that the woman was deluded, he did it without sounding dismissive, and I have agreed he may be right. But there are other possiblities, which I and others raised as well.

Re: Lise B

So basically, you acknowledge that everyone I said is a possibility, you just don't like how I said it? Haha.

Of course it is true that humans can only care so much. Just as they can only know truly know so many people and only feel to X degree for people who are separated by X degrees (there is a mathematical formula for how likely you are to sacrifice your life for any given person).

"The point that is relevant to the subject at hand is that things like that DO happen." Oh, so you are blaming me for the deaths of children by their parents because I gave you the impression (despite saying "I'm not saying that that has never happened") that I don't believe that infanticide has ever been a thing? All I said, Lise, was that Anji's posted story is probably BS and why, and gave some comparisons that read like they were penned by the same BS artist.

Also, yes it DOES matter whether the account was true or not. Just because the subject matter is touchy, doesn't mean you have to believe any CLEARLY MADE UP story that comes your way. Calling out a lie is not the same thing as saying that everything is a lie. Every time a publicized lie is called out (claimed rape or whatever), it sets everyone back because they are less likely to believe the next one. It's easier for people to dismiss the truth if they can believe it's a lie. I will say here that the only time I've heard a new story about rape and thought "she's lying, this makes no sense" - it was later proven that she WAS lying. My BS-o-meter is pretty accurate.

"I do have a problem with people who are ever so skeptical that they go meh on everything, nothing is ever true, everything is always exaggerated or an outright lie and everybody is nuts."

Haha, we're not talking about a 13 year old girl who wrote in saying her parents abused her and I said she was a lying tramp! You can't imply that I'm skeptical about everything because I'm skeptical about this, and you certainly can't say that because you've concluded that I'm skeptical about everything, that I must be wrong for being skeptical about THIS particular story. L1 does not ring true. To make her story possible you have to make many assumptions that are unlikely based on the letter (that she is ineffective at communicating her point, that CPS is corrupt and dismissive of reports of abuse from multiple respectable people, that the ex is a high power judge in a small town). It is much more likely that the first letter is made up, or that there is something wrong with the LW (either she is lying, or has Munchhausen by proxy, etc) and that is the way I reacted to. I think you all have enough common sense and know me well enough by now to know that I am not ignorant of the remote possibility that this is true which is why I didn't include platitudes for the mind-numbed, easily excited masses.

So, for you, let me be clear:

I acknowledge that it is possible that the ex husband is a high powered judge in a small town and CPS is corrupt and has have ignored the LW's pleas because she does communicate clearly and is incapable of thinking of taking pictures and contacting the police.

It is also possible that, in Anji's story, the firefighters did not check all the rooms in a burning house. And that none of them was wearing a mask so their tears were easily seen, which they all had because the shock and adrenaline had worn off by the time they got down the stairs. And that this story didn't make it into the news which is why there is no documentation to be found online.

Which, you know, really brings us back to square one. "I read this anonymous letter on the internet and acknowledge that every possibility is possible". Woo!

Re: Maggie Lawrence (#17)

Whoa, whoa, whoa ... wait a minute.

Yes, I realize that CPS and DHS – never mind the alphabet soup here – need definitive proof, but when a child IS diagnosed with PTSD ... when they refuse to investigate calls from required reporters (teachers, pediatricians and therapists), there is something VERY definitely wrong here.

Especially the PTSD part – yes, I'm sure you saw that. Something happened that caused him to get that way ... and it isn't necessarily watching a slasher movie. (Even if it were, no responsible parent lets a 4-year-old watch Freddy Krueger.)

Bruises, scratches, black eyes, scabies. And you go off on me for having a wild imagination sometimes. I highly doubt this kid is THAT accident prone.

This IS A 4-YEAR-OLD CHILD, for chrissakes! When he's afraid of Daddy that much, there is very likely a good reason why.

Bobaloo, a proud representative of male self-hatred and insecurity.

He is so eager to hate the ex-husband that he is more willing to accept a massive city- or state-wide conspiracy than the possibility that the ex-wife is a liar or a little wacky.

LW1 - I know CPS and the social safety nets aren't perfect but this just doesn't cut it. Not sure what the LWs issue is but I'm going to go out on a limb and call TBS> Total Bull Sh!t. If any of this is true I can not for a moment believe it is the magnatude she describes and quite frankly, I don't think it's happening at all.


LW2 - These are grownass kids. Stop with the gift giving all together. Send a nice card.


LW3 - Granted it was years ago and in a small uptight town but in my 4 year high school career I saw my conselor once and that was for her to tell me that I was bound for trade school when I asked for college info. Seriously. The most uninformed, worthless person I have ever dealt (on not dealt with as the case may be). Mrs McConnell at PHS was not worth the paper her paycheck was printed on. But I'm not bitter :-)

Re: Bobaloo

. < the point

O <your head

Re: Zoe #42
"So basically, you acknowledge that everyone I said is a possibility, you just don't like how I said it? "
Indeed, the way it is said often makes all the difference. That's why some people make a career out of diplomacy.

And while I certainly acknowldge it is a possibility, it certainly is not the only one.

"Oh, so you are blaming me for the deaths of children etc etc etc"
I'm not blaming you for anything. Don't know where you got that.

"Also, yes it DOES matter whether the account was true or not."
No, it doesn't, because that's not what's the subject at hand here, the LW's account is. THAT matters whether it's true or not, and we have no way of proving anything one way or the other.

"You can't imply that I'm skeptical about everything because I'm skeptical about this"
a) Ah, but you often are... ;-D
b) I wasn't necessarily talking about you in particular.

"To make her story possible you have to make many assumptions (bla bla bla) that the ex is a high power judge in a small town"
If the story is true, I actually think this is the most lilely scenario, as there have been many instances of exactly that in the past and I even have first-hand experience with a mild version of the same myself.

@zoe: “"she asked if he would love her forever and he said no so she ran away crying and got hit by a car and when he went to her body he whispered 'i'll love u 5ever which is more than 4ever.'" haha).”

Omg. I literally laughed out loud in my office. My personal favorite is girl asked a guy if he thought she was pretty, he said…no. She asked him if he would want to be with her forever
...and he said no. She then asked him if she were to leave would he cry, and once again he replied with a no. She had heard enough. As she ran away crying, she got hit by a car. As she laid, dying, in her boyfriend's arms, he said… You're not pretty you're beautiful. I don't want to be with you forever, I NEED to be with you forever. And I wouldn't cry if you walked away…I'd die…

Bahahahaha.

Re: Zoe (#46)

So what's your point?

Basically, you also sided with a very probable child abuser. I disagree – many of us disagree. There are obvious signs that something is being ignored here – read the letter at face value – and this chain needs to be stopped before a young boy pays the ultimate price.

Oh please, bobaloo You are the most gullible, easily manipulated, impressionable creature to call himself a newspaperman I have ever heard of. Of COURSE you believe LW1 because it, like, tugs at your heart strings and stuff! So he must be a sadistic devil and his wife is a bitch and whatever other names you can fashion for third-hand people from the second hand clues of an apparant nut case.

Keep at it - you're entertaining. And as usual, you're finding an imaginary crowd of people who also think as you do, where in reality, the majority of BTL seems to agree - INCLUDING the Annies - that there's something way off about this story.

@Casey #48 - So did she haul off and slap him then? Because that would have been cool. Huh? :-)

LW1: Your story doesn't make sense. You hire lawyers and you still lose? Even with all these witnesses including a shrink? I'm calling bs on your story. I think you're making this all up because you're pissed he has a new wife.

LW2: Easy answer - stop gift giving - they're adults and they don't need presents. Also, stop making this into a competition - it's gross.

At Rick #51, No, she did not haul off and slap him. She said, "why is your throat clicking?"

Re: Maggie Lawrence (#50)

So what you're saying is that this is a mentally sick woman who just doesn't like her ex and the fact that he gets to see his son? (Never mind she says quite clearly, "I don't speak negatively about his father.")

I don't think I like that you're calling this woman a "nut" case. It's been said already, but it is exactly this attitude that makes the innocent suffer and ultimately pay a dear price. For what?

Of course follow the advice – document, call the Childhelp National Child Abuse Hotline and do everything else. I cannot imagine you, as someone who's been in the teaching profession, you would bear such an attitude.

If it's not adding up, it's because there's something broken with the system or someone's having an influence – take your pick. I interpret the majority differently, sorry. (Well, not really.) But do NOT ever accuse me of buying into a sob story. NEVER!

So I give it out to everyone who's still active today – do you believe this woman and her story, yay or nay?

Bobaloo, here's a good idea for you. Go back and re-read the letters posted on BTL today. Apparently nothing sunk into your little noggin except mine. But it's pretty amazing to see this: "If it's not adding up, it's because there's something broken with the system or someone's having an influence – take your pick. I interpret the majority differently, sorry. (Well, not really.) But do NOT ever accuse me of buying into a sob story. NEVER!" (You're even funnier when you try to get all tough with other BTLers.)

When not only have you bought lock, stock, and barrel into an absurd sob story in which almost nothing makes sense, but then you get all on your high-horse and maintain that there are only two possibilities - influence or a broken system. And your wee brain doesn't have the capacity to recognize that there is a third, very likely possibility, and that is that LW1 is a nut who is determined that her son should be the broken product of whatever venom she harbors toward her husband. And she does this by taking a 4 year old - A 4 YEAR OLD~ to a therapist! And making claims to the Annies of PTSD, as if a reputable therapist would make such a diagnosis based on a case that not one single person in authority can make a finding on - teacher (4 year olds have teachers?) therapist, lawyer, etc.

But YOU, Bobaloo the Omniscient, know that this poor child is suffering at the hands of the father and step=mother. You just know it, even thought the Annies, soft-headed thought they often are, also see the absurdity of this story.

So yeah, you're wrong. Again.

Zoe: "Oh, so you are blaming me for the deaths of children etc etc etc"
Lise: "I'm not blaming you for anything. Don't know where you got that."

Right from comment 29, where you said, "It is exactly people like you who make it possible for children to be abused and murdered."

Bobaloo, get a piece of paper- on one side write, do not believe. On the other side write, believe. Then you can read the letters and put little lines below each column. Using your fingers count the little lines and report back to us your findings.

Re: Maggie Lawrence

"4 year olds have teachers?" – Yeah, a PRESCHOOL teacher. Some go to pre-kindergarten.

Yes, I did go back and re-read the letters. I see it as something not connecting with the system. That we agree on ... that there is some reason why the abuse allegations aren't being followed up on.

"... LW1 is a nut who is determined that her son should be the broken product of whatever venom she harbors toward her husband is a nut who is determined that her son should be the broken product of whatever venom she harbors toward her husband."

All I'll say about that is if she indeed is a nut – not as much a chance as her husband is one – then she's obviously very sick and very likely nothing will change her mind. Who knows – maybe the kid is better off in state care.

Look, child abuse is something that should be taken very seriously. For you to dismiss this as some determined attempt to break off the boy's relations with father, when it very clearly says in the letter "he cries and begs to stay home. He says, 'Daddy hurts me, and I'm scared of him'" – right there, that tells me something is happening or has happened.

I hope you think so, because if you don't, then I feel sorry for you, Maggie. Really do.

Re: Penny (#57)

So, Penny, can I count you amongst the only handful of others – Maggie for sure, plus perhaps two others – that I've seen definitely say they do not agree with LW1?

I've seen a couple of middle-of-the-roaders here, to be honest, though.

But me, I'm looking for simple "yes" or "no."

Honestly, I'd like to hear what Mike H has to say – he hasn't weighed in yet. Must be busy making doughnuts today (I'll take glazed today.)

@bobaloo #54- no middle road here. Definitely a NAY. I don't believe her.

Re: Lise Brouillette (#25)

"And here's another one: some people do have a case, but are very unfocused and not at all articulate. They sink themselves going towards emotional arguments rather than facts, get sidetracked with details that are not relevant, and therefore sound like real nut cases. I've seen that too. If really the situation is as she states, then she'll have plenty to document, which should provide her with a better case."

I know I've been like this sometimes – and I call myself a writer (!) – at times unfocused and inarticulate, or not as articulate as I'd like to be, getting emotional with arguments rather than focusing.

That said, a good place to turn would be a student attorney. Many of them do these cases pro-bono (i.e. for free) and would be willing to help her focus, write down the facts, separate fact from fiction and help her at least try to prove her case. It's worth a shot.

And yes, I've also seen "crazy as a loon" people make exaggerated claims. I just don't see that here.

wow chase off nanchan, now it seems everyone is trying to chase off bobaloo.

Re: JustBecause (#60)

Well, to be honest, I would have been wrong with you. This is why I hesitate to put words in people's mouths.

Uh, commenting briefly on LW2 – the advice is simple: Give fairly, give equally. If someone complains, that's their problem.

Simple as that.

Okay bobaloo, I did your homework for you. Steve, Kitty, Gerhardt, Penny, I, Amji, Zoe, P.B. and Diane were about as clear as they all could be that LW1's story sounds like a crock. And then you come in, not only believing this story, but maintaining that "if she indeed is a nut – not as much a chance as her husband is one" And WHY is that, other than what P.B observed regarding your need to blame the man? WHY is there more chance that the husband is a sadistic abuser than that the mother is a delusional nut?

Child abuse is indeed a serious thing, which is why false allegations - which can ruin lives, by the way - are equally serious. As for the crying and "I'm scared of Daddy" stuff, how hard do you think it has been for the mother to examine this child every time he comes back from the father's house, question him until she gets what she wants to hear, put thoughts in his head and words in his mouth and then say "A-HA! I KNEW it! That bastard is doing etc. etc.

And where do I get that? From the very fact that as often as she's supposedly reported this abuse, including the police and lawyers NOT ONE has found any evidence to support it. And this poor child is only 4 - much too young to have the mental artillary to see how he's being manipulated, only that "Daddy is bad and will hurt me."

I once had a door to door religion salesman come to my house trying to "save" me. He had his little boy with him and told me, rather proudly, that the child had cried and been terrified he was going to hell and begged his parents to baptise him. Now THAT, in my opinion, was a form of abuse because those parents, whose agenda was clear, had told the child over and over about the torments of hell unless he was baptised.

I'm using that as an example of how easily a parent can get into a small child's head and pull out what they want to hear. There is very little doubt in my mind, given the frantic and irrational tone of LW1's letter, that that is quite possibly what has happened here. If you can't see it, I feel sorry for your newspaper.

Re: Maggie Lawrence (#64)

"I once had a door to door religion salesman come to my house trying to "save" me. He had his little boy with him and told me, rather proudly, that the child had cried and been terrified he was going to hell and begged his parents to baptise him."

I don't see the correlation here. In this case, the child here is an actor – AN ACTOR – paid to go along with this person's evangelism to make a "sale" (e.g., coax them to convert to their denomination, buy what audio CDs/books they're selling, come to their worship services, etc.). He's also probably going by a script himself, if not he's sure memorized a very charismatic spiel. Anyway, I highly doubt he (the little boy) was actually told that if he didn't agree to being baptized he was going to Hell, at least not in the manner described by this salesman – this was a sales pitch, plain and simple.

And for the record, I sure hope you slammed the door in his face. I don't think this is a simple "see you in church on Sunday" pitch, either. Sounds like one of those religions where representatives go door-to-door (Adventists and Jehovah's Witness are two that come to mind).

I do wonder what the door-to-door solicitation ordinances are in your city?

FTR – I remember the visit my elderly neighbors once got from Jehovah's Witnesses who were going door-to-door trying to get converts. The male half was 82 years old and in a wheelchair (due to a hip operation); they had the gall to say that because he wasn't "their religion" (he was a Presbyterian, although he surely didn't tell them that) God was punishing them.

Needless to say, his wife stepped in, asked them to leave ... and when they tried to persist threatened to call the police if they didn't leave immediately. They left and I don't think one ever stopped at the house again.

And FWIW Maggie – I will agree with this statement: "Child abuse is indeed a serious thing, which is why false allegations – which can ruin lives, by the way – are equally serious."

But when you say, "From the very fact that as often as she's supposedly reported this abuse, including the police and lawyers NOT ONE has found any evidence to support it," it tells me that you don't believe the possibility exists that either the CPS/DHS is not doing their job or that the husband has some friends in key places.

Re: Bobaloo

In a sense, your reaction to lw1 is almost endearing. It's like you've never been exposed to someone crazy or vindictive enough to spin the kind of yarn that lw1 is, and you can't even comprehend the possibility that this has nothing to do with a broken system or abusive father, but a crazy, sad and/angry woman who has likely influenced her four year old son and the various people around her to believe her tale of scabies and black eyes that authorities apparently don't believe is abuse.

Re: Casey

Haha, I had not heard that one! We women sure are sensitive creatures, huh?

Re: Lise B

"I'm not blaming you for anything. Don't know where you got that."

Dorothy P quoted it if you forgot. You said that people like me make it possible for children to be murdered! (I was being sardonic though).

"No, it doesn't, because that's not what's the subject at hand here, the LW's account is."

The subject is the thing we are talking about, and that's what I was talking about when I called BS, which you then proclaimed enabled child murders. So yeah, it's the subject at hand. People like lw1 or whomever penned the story that Anji posted make people skeptical which is exactly what you said causes child murder.

Yes, I will concede that I'm skeptical, but most of the time my skepticism is warranted. Except recently I was disproven about... Something adult, regarding the existence of the skene's gland its effects. ;) although I was happy to be wrong about that one! (Nsfw if you're going to google that, btw!)

"If the story is true, I actually think this is the most lilely scenario"

Well, sure, but that's kind of like saying that IF UFO stories are true, the most likely scenario is that they are from gamma quadrant eight because there is an inhabitable planet there and a ship could reach earth is x numbers of generations. Sure, but it's more likely that these people are just seeing things.

To: Nanchan

If you're lurking, Nanchan, I thought you'd want to know that my husband's vasectomy is scheduled for this Wednesday!

Re: Bobaloo, Give it up! She has already told you several times she doesn't believe it nor do 8 others BTL nor the Annie's! Your ramblings are getting silly and are not making any sense. Did you not mention recently that you were Editor of the paper now. Holy cow...what do you print in that?

@Bobaloo #65 - Your post says you don't see the correlation between the child who was afraid to go to hell and the LW1's child. Well, the salesman's son didn't "act" at all, Maggie just heard a tale from his "father". The correlation is that in both cases, an adult is telling us what a child supposedly said, to manipulate us (definitely in the salesman's case, possibly in LW1's case).