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Dear Annie: After more than 40 years of devotion to my husband, I have finally realized what a stonehearted jerk he is. I have done everything in my power to love, respect and encourage him. But I've fallen into a pattern of picking up the pieces of …Read more.
Envying the Enabled
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Our brother, …Read more.
Kelsey Mately
Dear Annie: My husband's sister "Kelsey" filed for divorce a few months ago. Her soon-to-be ex-husband kept in touch. He told me that Kelsey had been cheating on him with the guy she is currently seeing. I didn't want to believe him, but …Read more.
His Problem Goes Way Beyond Age
Dear Annie: Five months ago, I met "Abby" at my job. We have a lot in common and have become close. We flirt with each other. Here's the problem. Abby is 41, and I am 20. She looks and acts much younger.
Abby is in a terrible relationship …Read more.
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She Loves the Heat but Won't Start the Fire
Dear Annie: You frequently print letters from husbands whose wives show no interest in sex, but I've never seen a problem like mine. My wife loves sex. However, she will never initiate it or act seductively. If I don't initiate sex, it doesn't happen. We can go for weeks without it. Yet when we are intimate, she adores it. She frequently says, "This is so great. I love sex."
In addition, my wife never does anything that might provoke arousal, including kissing. No goodnight kiss, no kiss of greeting when we've been apart, no spooning in bed before falling asleep. It's like we're roommates.
I'm not some unappreciative husband of an overworked wife. I do all the laundry, dishes, housecleaning, yard work, and home and car maintenance. I pay all the bills. We have identical jobs and work hours.
I'm in excellent shape, and she claims our sex is amazing. Many times, I've explained that I'm hurt that she doesn't find me sexually appealing. We've argued about this for 30 years, and she always promises to change, but it never happens. We've tried all kinds of marital aids and videos, but nothing helps. Every night, she watches TV, crawls into bed and goes to sleep.
Am I wrong to think that a mutually rewarding, romantic, physical relationship needs to be more of a partnership? Is it wrong that I need to believe she is sexually attracted to me? — Unhappy Husband
Dear Unhappy: There could be different reasons for your wife's behavior. She may have some deep-seated hang-ups about women behaving seductively or initiating sex. She may not be all that interested, but enjoys it once you get started. Or she may be putting on an Academy Award performance for your benefit.
After 30 years, we are going to assume your wife is in menopause and whatever chance you may have had to interest her has diminished substantially. This has nothing to do with finding you sexually attractive. Her libido simply isn't up to it anymore. If she enjoys sex once you get started, please don't focus on who makes the first move.
Dear Annie: I married Bob five years ago. He is 72, and I am 68. Bob is the most loving, kind and generous man I have ever met.
The problem is that I love to dance. I could go dancing four nights a week. But Bob will only take me dancing on Saturday nights, and after two hours on the floor, he's out of gas and wants to go home. I could dance until midnight and then go out with friends for coffee. I'd be happy to let him rest while I keep dancing, but my old dance partners won't ask me out on the floor now that I'm married. I am so angry. What should I do? — Jane in Ohio
Dear Jane: Why are you so angry? You are married to a wonderful man who takes you dancing every week. It may not be as often as you'd like, but it's hardly deprivation. Would Bob mind if you went with friends instead? Would it bother him if you asked your old dance partners to squire you around? If those guys knew it was OK with your husband, they might be perfectly willing to step in so you could have a few more hours of fun while Bob takes a break. Find out.
Dear Annie: This is for "Adopted Child," who asked about contacting her biological family. If she doesn't get a quick response, it's possibly because the family is going through some difficulties. Or maybe they need more time to digest being contacted by their biological sibling.
If there's no response, I suggest the adoptee gently contact them again, perhaps in a year. Reaching out to one's biological family can be a positive, life-changing experience, but one should be prepared for all possible outcomes. — Another Birth Mother
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please e-mail your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 5777 W. Century Blvd., Ste. 700, Los Angeles, CA 90045. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
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Comments
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52 Comments | Post Comment
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LW1 - Sounds like you've tried all there is to try and talked all there is to talk. The question now is whether you are willing to spend the rest of your life enjoying sex with your wife who will not initiate.
LW2 - Why don't YOU ask your old dance partners for a night on the town? I often go out dancing without my husband and yes, I dance with men. I don't go home with them, it's all for fun. Just make it clear that you're going as friends only and then have a good time! And stop being angry. Your husband is 72, and you claim he's a wonderful man. If your only complaint is that he only wants to go dancing once a week instead of four, count yourself lucky!
Comment: #1
Posted by: Zoe
Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:07 PM
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LW2: You married late in life or is this 2nd time around for you or him or both? Out of gas, plain old pooped. Maybe start with the dancing earlier in the evening. Our area of the county is very well known for 'Old Time Dances" and are on local TV, etc but some of those dances take place on Sunday afternoon, early in the evenings. I have a friend my age who does this after taking dance lessons when her special other died a few years back. Met her now special friend friend there and they dance alot. BTW, her special friend just turned 80 and she is 55. No hanky-panky, just special friends as dancing partners.
My inlaws and their friends spent alot of their evenings out dancing. Never heard my f-i-l complain about who he all danced with unless he had someone who ran all over the floor or someone with sweaty palms. Both a no-no.
But this every night of the week desire on your part should be reigned back a bit so you both enjoy going out. Would you like it if he wanted to fish every day of the week and into the dark of the night? Good balance and compromise is good.
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LW1: Golly Gee, if she does it everytime you ask YET you are waiting for her to say COME ON--then you can sit there with your hands in your pockets. It sounds like you find every which way to find out what is wrong with HER kick start, supplying manuals, etc. You are lucky she has not tossed those books at you---
Quit insulting her by doing this and be grateful for what you got. It could be less.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:16 PM
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LW2: You married late in life or is this 2nd time around for you or him or both? Out of gas, plain old pooped. Maybe start with the dancing earlier in the evening. Our area of the county is very well known for 'Old Time Dances" and are on local TV, etc but some of those dances take place on Sunday afternoon, early in the evenings. I have a friend my age who does this after taking dance lessons when her special other died a few years back. Met her now special friend friend there and they dance alot. BTW, her special friend just turned 80 and she is 55. No hanky-panky, just special friends as dancing partners.
My inlaws and their friends spent alot of their evenings out dancing. Never heard my f-i-l complain about who he all danced with unless he had someone who ran all over the floor or someone with sweaty palms. Both a no-no.
But this every night of the week desire on your part should be reigned back a bit so you both enjoy going out. Would you like it if he wanted to fish every day of the week and into the dark of the night? Good balance and compromise is good.
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LW1: Golly Gee, if she does it everytime you ask YET you are waiting for her to say COME ON--then you can sit there with your hands in your pockets. It sounds like you find every which way to find out what is wrong with HER kick start, supplying manuals, etc. You are lucky she has not tossed those books at you---
Quit insulting her by doing this and be grateful for what you got. It could be less.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:16 PM
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LW1: Whine much? You want it, you initiate it! Or would you rather have your wife fake greater interest? Annies, I'm sure you must have letters from people with actual problems, so why not print some?
Comment: #4
Posted by: Baldrz
Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:42 PM
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YIKES! the Annies whip out the M excuse again!!! Have either of you actually GONE through menopause? why do you assume every women who does is turned off by sex!? GRRRRRRRR.
LW1.. One word for you. FAKING. Oh wait, another word for you. MEALTICKET. Third? Patsy.
"I do all the laundry, dishes, housecleaning, yard work, and home and car maintenance. I pay all the bills. We have identical jobs and work hours. " Huh? Why do you do everything and your wife does nothing for the home? Is it because YOU are so grateful that she puts out when you make the first move?
the Annies are wrong here. This is a time, especially since you likely have adult children if any children at all, to reassess the relationship. Either she looks into counseling, or you start looking for other venues for your affections.
What you have is a one sided relationship. Life is short. If she's not willing to make the effort, even for counseling, it's time to look into other options.
Comment: #5
Posted by: nanchan
Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:47 PM
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LW1-
As the Annies said, it is possible your wife suffers from some serious hang-up. God knows how she was raised - by people for whom any attractive woman was a whore, perhaps? Or maybe she was abused and told it was all her fault for being too "seductive".
You will never know if your wife truly gets into it once you get her started or if she fakes it convincingly but, if she gives it to you ungrudgingly and seems genuine about it, I would count my blessings if I were you. After 30 years, this is unlikely to change - nobody's perfect. You're doing a lot better than many and there are a lot of men and women both who would gladly trade sex lives with you.
LW2-
Another one complaining with her belly full. That's your only complaint, and it makes you "so angry"? I'm baffled. Stop looking for something to fight about. Frankly, I love dancing too, and I could go on half the night also but if, at your age or mine, I managed to find a man who took me out to dance every week, I would be turning cartwheels (with him or a friend) and I would praise him to high heaven, not complain! What the Annies said - perfect.
Today's theme seems to be "People complaining of a fate many would gladly settle for".
Comment: #6
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:01 PM
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LW1 -- sweetie, please, count your blessings. Your wife has been having sex whenever you initiate it for the last 30 years. No headaches. No excuses. She tells you she loves it!
I can see that more cuddling and spooning would be nice, but please take a moment to appreciate what you have.
Nanchan could be right that your wife views you as a meal ticket, but I think a more likely explanation is that she grew up in a social environment in which women were not encouraged to be sexually aggressive. It just doesn't feel natural to her. I've met (and counseled) a number of folks like that when I was a therapist... some women but also some men.... they would try but it was like asking an introvert to suddenly be an extrovert, in the area of sex... it can be really hard. (Or ... ah.... .... no, not goin' there :)
Comment: #7
Posted by: sarah morrow
Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:34 PM
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Re: sarah morrow
"Nanchan could be right that your wife views you as a meal ticket, but I think a more likely explanation is that she grew up in a social environment in which women were not encouraged to be sexually aggressive"
Wel, sarah, if that's the case, then the LW's wife ALSO grew up in a social environment where the WOMAN took care of the (lw' quotes) ' laundry, dishes, housecleaning,".
she can't have it both ways... or was she born on the cusp between differing roles of female responsibilities?
Comment: #8
Posted by: nanchan
Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:27 PM
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eh.... nanchan not necessarily at all. I positively hate initiating sex. I mean I absolutely hate it. I also love it. I mean a whole lot. I would happily do it daily, preferably twice. But the thing is and yes I realize this is socialization but it's the opposite of what you think... I find a woman chasing a man utterly distasteful. Not because being forward is bad, but because to me there's something damn pathetic about women running around after men chasing them into relationships. Women should be confident and sure of themselves and when I see a woman who needs to ask for sex I see Stacey from Wayne's World. Yuck. If a man is interested in sex with me he is free to let me know. There is no time of day or night I am not interested. I may be tired from toddler chasing and I still won't say no. But there's nothing more yucky and rejection feeding than asking a man for sex and being told "I'm too tired" (for me anyway).
Asking for sex brings back memories of being a desperate teenager begging for a boyfriend and crying no one would date me and basically being a pathetic man chaser. No way would I ever be in that position again. I have a vibrator if a man isn't interested in putting out thanks very much.
And no it's not the same self esteem killer for a man to ask for sex as men are socialized to ask for it in the western world.
Ironically my husband and I have been to counselling about this. He insisted he wanted me to initiate more. Okay, so I did. and EVERY single time I would he was too tired, had a headache, not in the mood, the moon was in the wrong phase, something. He hotly denied this. I kept documented track and he had to admit it. In the end he wanted me to initiate when HE was in the mood. He realized this was ridiculous and we went back to our preferred pattern.
I'm not totally cold. I'll come to bed naked and I'll say "I miss you" when it's been 2-3 days. But actually walk up and start kissing sensually or outright ask? Oh Hell No. Not in this lifetime.
Luckily my husband believes me that I love sex, and doesn't wait for several weeks to start the ball rolling (I start getting really stereotypically girly and overanalyzing our entire relationship if I go longer than a few days, and after a week or so I am unbearable I find). And I agree with you that menopause does not necessarily kill sexual desire (especially if your man is talented in bed). I exclusively nurse my babies to the point where I do not ovulate for well over a year after giving birth and while I blamed this for being asexual in my previous marriage, I was desperately aching for my current husband long before the prescribed six weeks were up.
Comment: #9
Posted by: wkh
Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:23 AM
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LW1 - I disagree with people who tell you to count your blessings that you have a wife that says she likes sex. If I was married and my husband never initiated anything - not even a goodnight kiss - then I would feel very insecure about myself. I mean, she doesn't even greet you after you've been gone! I think you have every right to be upset.
I also question why you are doing everything in the house and paying all of the bills. If you're happy doing it, then fine, so be it. But if you're not happy being the only one doing everything and paying everything, then that's another problem. You both work, therefore, the household duties and bills should be shared.
I say go for marriage counseling. And if she won't go with you, then go alone.
LW2 - If you want to go out dancing more than just Saturday nights, then go with friends.
Comment: #10
Posted by: Michelle
Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:32 AM
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LW1, if she's never turned down sex that you initiated, and always enthusiastically participated once you initiated, then its likely that this is a "hang up" or a pattern that is so ingrained its unlikely to change much after 30 years. Also, if you've been with her for 30 years, have you *always* felt insecure because of this, or is it only recently?? If it's recent, maybe something else has changed as well and that's the real reason for your insecurity. Perhaps some thinking about that, or counseling, could help.
Also, from your letter it appears you do everything and she does nothing, which also seems a bit odd, and has raised a few red flags. Perhaps you just left out the things she does, or perhaps you have a very lopsided relationship, which could also be part of your anxiety.
LW2, it seems odd that you are angry about this. Did he take you out dancing for hours 4 nights a week prior to the marriage, and has stopped since the marriage? You don't say, but it doesn't seem like it. I think, if it's so very important to you, that you should talk with him about going out one extra night per week with your friends, and then enjoy the weekend dancing with him. But... you may want to take a look at this behavior that you have what appears to outsiders as a rather extreme emotional reaction to a relatively minor situation. Is something else going on with your marriage, and this is just the focus that you've latched onto?
Comment: #11
Posted by: Mike H
Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:57 AM
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LW1--"We've argued about this for 30 years, and she always promises to change, but it never happens." If you and your wife have been arguing about this for 30 years then it ain't ever going to change buddy. The reason the Annies haven't printed a "problem" like yours before is because it doesn't sound as though there really is a problem, except in your head. Your wife seems like a perfectly normal woman to me. When you initiate intimacy, she enthusiastically complies. What more do you want? If you're expecting your wife to meet you at the door in whips and chains or play nursey nursey for you every other week in order to stroke your feeble ego and make you feel like the twenty-something stud of your youth then you have a twisted and unrealistic expectation of what sex with your wife should entail. My advice to you is to stop pestering your wife to initiate sex or be something that she's not and be happy with what you're getting. There are many, many men who would trade their left one for your wife.
LW2--"The problem is that I love to dance. I could go dancing four nights a week. But Bob will only take me dancing on Saturday nights, and after two hours on the floor, he's out of gas and wants to go home." After two hours of dancing on a Saturday night I'M out of gas and ready to go home too...I'm in my 30's! Dancing is something that's important to YOU, nevertheless, your husband is attempting to enjoy your hobby with you by accompanying you out once a week. It seems like a perfectly reasonable compromise given his age and level of passion for the art. Instead of appreciating your husband's efforts to meet you half way, you're angry because he doesn't want to dance until his feet bleed every night and then stay out all hours afterward partying with your friends. Get a grip. Instead of getting angry, why not try to thing of things in a different light. What if Bob wanted sex every night, all hours of the night but once a week is perfectly enough for you? Puts things into perspective doesn't it. It's obvious that your passion for dancing goes well beyond Bob's. My advice to you is to inform your old dance partners that your husband only too willing to let them cut in; meanwhile cut your ease off on your husband. Seems like he's a good sport to me.
Comment: #12
Posted by: Chris
Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:02 AM
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Oh, Annies, not the old menopuase excuse AGAIN. For Pete's sake, even if that were true, the woman has been like this for 30 years. And guess what? Some women get MORE into sex at menopause, not less. Do some research on menopause before you trot out that tired excuse again. And as for all the people saying "you want it, YOU initiate", wow, why all the animosity? To most men, sex is affection. How would you like to be in a marriage where you were NEVER hugged, kissed, touched or told I love you unless you initiated it? You would feel unloved, just like this poor man. He has a right to have a problem and feel hurt by this, and he is NOT whining.
Comment: #13
Posted by: Jane
Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:28 AM
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I'd like to offer a plug for dancing as a great aerobic activity. This dancing woman probably is taking good care of her health, and doing her husband a favor by getting his heart rate up at least once a week. If he can't keep up with her, she needs more alternative dancing partners, that's all. Maybe Bob would enjoy getting to know some of the guys, the old dancing partners. Better she should look for solutions than get angry at him.
Comment: #14
Posted by: Claude
Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:13 AM
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I am more than a little surprised that many of you think this guys should think he's LUCKY his wife has sex with him but never initiates it.
SO...let's do this. Let's reverse the sexes here.
If the WIFE weredoing "all the laundry, dishes, housecleaning, yard work, and home and car maintenance. I pay all the bills." and her husband never initiated sex, we would be telling her to visit a therapist or a lawyer. if the wife had said "We've argued about this for 30 years, and he always promises to change, but it never happens. " the BTL would be telling her that her husband has no desire to change.... and why SHOULD he? He has it all, the house is taken care of and all he has to do is perform when she asks... he's got it made!
Well, the same thing goes here. The thing that bothers me the most about this letter isn't the fact that the wife does not initiate sex. the thing that bothers me the most about this letter is how one sided this marriage is and how little the wife seems to be putting into the marriage.
As I've said above, life is short. 30 years to be arguing about this is about 28 years too long. They should be seeking help for this issue, probably from a marriage counselor. The LW obviously feels unloved. THAT is a problem. Not something he should feel "lucky" about at all.
It looks like we now have a new double standard.
Comment: #15
Posted by: nanchan
Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:36 AM
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LW1 - I'm also leaning toward that this is an ingrained attitude or pattern with her and that she may think initiating sex or foreplay is slutty or improper for women. Have you ever asked her what affection was like in her home growing up? Have you ever witnessed her side of the family being demonstrative with hugs and kisses? That in itself can be very telling.
Oh and I find the menopause theory ridiculous here too. Not every menopausal woman has trouble with sex, and given the LW doesn't mention his wife has hit the big M that's far-reaching and even a little insulting to suggest it.
LW2 - Would you like some cheese with your whine? Seriously - your husband is 72! I would think it would be normal for him to get tired after 2 hours of dancing - heck I'm in my 40s and I'd get tired after 2 hours of dancing.
You really need to find some sort of compromise and change your expectations of your husband. Being angry at him over this is childish - you sound like a 14 year old girl stamping her foot that her boyfriend's not giving her what she wants.
Good for you that you still have so much energy and stamina, but it's clear he doesn't... and marriage is about accepting each other's differences and limitations. So learn to accept this one, especially given you praise him in every other way.
Comment: #16
Posted by: PS
Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:44 AM
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The dancing for 2 hrs straight--more than an formal exercise class--Is He Out Of Shape? At his age, this is more exercise than what you do for a stress testing. Did you enter your marriage knowing you wanted obcessive nights out for dancing? Was he a nightly partner at the dance places before you got married? Was he seeing someone else at the time or going solo?
Just go to the dances the other nights by yourself, and let him fill his time with what he finds enjoyable--other than the dancing.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:53 AM
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nanchan - I'm going to play devil's advocate and ask, what double standard? Men weren't taught at one time that it was untoward or slutty of them to initiate sex...
Do we know the reason he does so much housework? Maybe she has the more tiring job. Maybe even if she works the same hours at the office, she takes some of that work home with her and he didn't mention that.
Furthermore, has he ALWAYS done the lion's share of the chores as he's claiming? It could have been during the first part of their marriage she was a full time mother at home and now things have shifted now that the nest is empty and she works, so this may only be a recent arrangement... but we don't know that.
Also he doesn't mention doing the cooking, so she probably does that. I'm willing to bet there are things she does around the house that he left out. When my husband's pissed off during an argument he likes to claim he does "all" of the housework too, when nothing's further from the truth... just sayin'.
Given she works, she's not leeching off him financially. Those things rule out the meal ticket theory, literally.
Let's remember he's only telling his side of the story, and these letters get edited pretty heavily before they make it into the column sometimes. So everything we're saying is our own version of their "he said, she said" anyway.
Comment: #18
Posted by: PS
Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:01 AM
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@nanchan, some people don't like to initiate sex. I was in a previous relationship where I had a willing partner but his "thing" was that he didn't like to be aggressive. And we were both men.
Yes, maybe there's a bigger problem, but maybe not. Maybe she's just not comfortable initiating sex and never will be. People have hang ups. People have things they are comfortable with in the bedroom, and other things they aren't comfortable with.
She hasn't, to our knowledge, cheated on him. They have a 30-year marriage. She's never refused him (that we know of), and she often compliments him afterwards, talks about how much she enjoyed it.
That's really not that big a problem IF the issue is simply she has a "thing" about the man always initiates. That may simply be so ingrained in her that she can't change that part of her bedroom nature. And IF it's not representative of some other problem in their marriage, then it really isn't all that big a deal. Bedroom life, like other aspects of marriage, involves communication and compromise. If she's game for everything else he wants to do, and this is the only issue she can't change herself for him, then yes, I think it's a relatively small price to pay.
In fact, he may be fixating on it so much for precisely the reason that he's gotten everything else he's wanted from her! In which case I think it's unfair to suggest this is her problem, it could simply be that he doesn't know how to let go of it when he's always gotten his way otherwise.
Especially since this seems to be a marriage that works in every other way, I think he's missing the fact that it HAS been a partnership -- but a partnership doesn't mean exactly equal in each and every part of your life together. It's not "she has to initiate 50% of the time and I have to initiate 50% of the time". He initiates, she's receptive, she says how much she enjoys it... not really a problem, except I think he needs to adjust his expectations to meet the reality of the wife he has, not the perfect fantasy wife he wants.
Or, in other words, she has some say in how she wants their bedroom life to be, too. If she *doesn't* want to be the initiator, he should be okay with that. And her inability to change after discussing it is a pretty big indicator that she doesn't want to be the initiator. (Heck, maybe it's a turn OFF for her to be the one that does the pursuing, ever think of that?)
Comment: #19
Posted by: Mike H
Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:18 AM
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@nanchan, my "ever think of that" wasn't directed at you, but at the LW -- should have been "has he ever thought of that?" -- sorry for the poor editing.
I don't know if anyone else does this, but I often find myself shifting from third person discussion in my comments to a more second person voice, so that by the end I'm addressing the LW directly -- and if I'm not careful, it can be quite confusing, as above.
Comment: #20
Posted by: Mike H
Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:22 AM
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@ Chris post # 12
I love your post, not only for today, but others as well. Your posts are so colorful and bold. I have 2 adult kids, ages 37 & 38 and I can almost hear them coming out with the same tone. Love it !!
Have a Merry Christmas Chris !!
Comment: #21
Posted by: Gwen
Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:29 AM
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#2 Jane in Ohio
I don't know what dances you do but I am 64. My husband and I dance bt almost NEVER dance with each other. In Arizona in country dancing, swing dancing, it is acceptable for women to ask me. Why not ask your old partners?
I also tango where women do not ask men but we get around that by chatting with potential partners and when we run out of small talk they usually askus.
Or why not be direct and tell old partners how you feel and that you wish they would ask you to dance.
As far as my marriage (of 28 years) is concerned, I live with this man, sleep with this man, cook for this man, I don't really NEED to dance with him. In fact I don't even want to. Why limit yourself like this?
And what is stopping you from going out dancing by yourself? At 68 you should not be worried about what people may think. Life is short. Live it to the fullest.
Comment: #22
Posted by: nikki sunset
Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:45 AM
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Re: nanchan
"Wel, sarah, if that's the case, then the LW's wife ALSO grew up in a social environment where the WOMAN took care of the (lw' quotes) ' laundry, dishes, housecleaning,"
Environment being common (if that is even the case, he may come from an entirely different environment, we know nothing about these LWs), even within the same culture family dynamics will differ, circumstances in how the children are raised will differ. He could have been raised by his widowed father and both had to pitch in for the household chores - for instance.
We're also not told why he's the one doing it "all". Perhaps she's disabled in some way and/or terrible at it? I don't know but, given that this has been an accepted status quo for 30 years and he's not complaining about THAT, there must be a good reason. He also doesn't mention cooking, (and possibly sewing, mending and other types of hand-making), grocery shopping and errands, so evidently she does something. It would be unfair to assume (MIchelle & Mike H) that he does everything and that she just kicks her shoes waiting to be served when she comes home from work.
At any rate, household chores and sex do not compare in the amount of emotion invested when something is not working quite right. The division of chores in a couple is generally a lot easier to fix than a sex problem.
" and her husband never initiated sex, we would be telling her to visit a therapist or a lawyer."
Not me, I wouldn't. I would be telling her that, as long as he never (or rarely) refuses her when she initiates, to the point where she is getting her satisfaction, that this is one of her husband's little quirks and to live with it. No double standard here. Hey - if you look at it the right way, it would even the best ever - she'd only be getting sex when she feels like it and never pestered when she doesn't! There is a silver lining to everything.
I will quote PS about LW2, because it applies to LW1 as well: "Marriage is about accepting each other's differences and limitations. " Nobody's perfect, one can never have everything.
@MikeH
"But... you may want to take a look at this behavior that you have what appears to outsiders as a rather extreme emotional reaction to a relatively minor situation. Is something else going on with your marriage, and this is just the focus that you've latched onto?"
Sure sounds like it.
@PS
"Would you like some cheese with your whine?"
Hee hee hee ho ho ho HAW HAW HAW HAW!
I agree that the menopause excuse is yurunda... Back in the day, there were plenty of women who suddenly got into sex after "the change", because all of a sudden they didn't have to fear pregnancy anymore. Now that I think of it, I remember a letter to some advice column when I started reading them 45 years ago about a man being (gratified but) totally baffled by his wife's sudden change of mood, and this is what the answer explained.
Comment: #23
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:49 AM
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@Lise, maybe "menopause" is becoming the new "get counseling" response for the Annies:
"Dear Annies, my neighbor's new dog barks incessantly, and I'm having trouble sleeping. What should I do?
Dear Letter Writer, sleeping problems are often a symptom of menopause. Go see your doctor."
"Dear Annies, my 30 year old son just lost his job and his wife left him. We let him move back in but he just sits in his room all day. I'm very worried about him, what should I do?
Dear Letter Writer, worry and other emotional changes are often a symptom of menopause. Go see your doctor."
Comment: #24
Posted by: Mike H
Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:31 AM
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LW1: last word from me on my posts, which I stand behind. It's NOT about who initiates sex. it's about one partner being unhappy with the balance of the partnership. You all can debate that till the cows come home, but HE is unhappy and that is reason enough to me for him to seek counseling. and if she doesn't go, then in my opinion, she is SELFISH. This is a loving man who apparently pulls more than his own weight. He wants a partner and he deserves one, not just someone who will roll over and perform for him like a trained seal.
LW2: I agree with nikki sunset (great name by the way). One of my closest friends belongs to a dance club (they meet every weekend at various venues to practice dancing, they are quite serious about it) and she says the husbands almost NEVER dance with their own wives. In fact, there are many married people in the club who come without their spouses. Many dancers that I know married non dancers and so they get their dance "fix" anyway they can.
BTW: One of my favorite "stars" is the former editor in chief of Cosmopolitan Helen Gurley Brown (she also wrote Sex and the Single Girl back in the 60s and helped bring about the feminist movement). In one of her books, she mentions her frustration with finding a good dance partner (her husband, movie producer David Brown, who passed away recently, apparently was not as into it as Helen). SHE went to an international business mogul who was well known for his ability to cut a rug, and they met one afternoon only to dance. I love that story for many reasons. first of all, she had a marriage where both partners (operative word there) knew there were things the other liked to do, and they gave them space to do it. Convention be damned: if Helen wanted to dance with another man, David was cool giving her the space to do so, no ego on him about that. Secondly, Helen has MOxIE! it takes GUTS to go up to a really well known rich dude and say, "You like to dance, I like to dance, let's dance". And finally, she owned what she wanted to do. She didn't WAIT for some guy to ask Her to dance, she asked him! One of my favorite Helen stories.
My point? You want it, own it. talk it over with your husband and let him know your frustration. then, loop in your old dance partners (maybe over drinks with your husband there?) Let THEM know you want to dance and that your husband approves (it will hold more weight if he says that part). Then go! dance! and if the old partners won't dance with you, then find new ones, maybe you look to join a club like my friend did, Or check meetup on the web.
Have FUN!
Comment: #25
Posted by: nanchan
Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:07 AM
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You recently seem to be on a campaign to convince us that post-menopausal women have no sex drive. Seriously, you may want to do some research before repeating this. Speaking as a women in my 50's, if the sex drive is zero, then contact a medical professional for therapy, which may include male & female hormone treatment. There is no reason for this not to be the best time ever - the kids are gone, and you've got the time & money by now to enjoy your spouse. Try a Google on sex after menopause, and you will find that women remain sexually active. You do us a disservice by implying there is no more fun to be had.
Comment: #26
Posted by: JUDY
Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:12 AM
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Re: Mike H
HILARIOuS! Here's some more
LWA: Dear Annie: my best friend says umm all the time. This is irritating. What can I do to help?
Dear LwA: Umm saying is often a side effect of menopause. Please tell your friend to see a doctor.
LWB: Dear Annie: my neighbor wants to build a fence on my side of the property line. What do you suggest I do? can we take legal action.
dear LWB: Building fences illegally is a classic sign of onset of menopause. If your neighbor has already consulted a doctor, you might suggest Menopausals Anonymous (reference: absolutely fabulous).
Comment: #27
Posted by: nanchan
Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:20 AM
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Re: nanchan
But, nanchan, he is NOT unhappy about the whole partnership, just like there is no evidence that he does absolutely everything in the house. He wasn't giving a rundown of his participation to complain, he was stating that to prevent the Annies (and possibly BTL) from speculating about her being overworked and too tired. The only part of the marriage he is complaining about is the fact that she never initiates sex and doesn't forward any physical intimacy on her own. Apart from that, he is getting as much nookie as he wants , with an enthusiastis participation at that, on top of high praise for his performance! What little he is not getting seems a very small thing if that's all he is lacking after 30 years. For all that he seems to be a good husband, I'm sure there are things she is not getting either, and we don't see HER writing in over a trifle.
You say "You want it, own it." to LW2. And what if he at his age is not able to dance for 4-6 hours three times a week like she would like? Would you suggest a therapist or divorce lawyer? What *I* suggest is that she tap her old partners and tell them that her husband is worn out on his feet and doesn't mind. It may very well be that LW1's wife is not able to initiate for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with selfishness. In which case he should divorce? After 30 years of an otherwise perfect marriage, including plenty of hanky-panky? Good luck funding someone with no flaws.
I'm sure you don't expect your own husband to be that perfect. Why are you being so hard on her?
@MikeH
Or perhaps they're going through menopause themselves and their own sex drives have driven over the cliff and crashed down 20 feet below sea level. At -50 F. Not counting the wind factor.
Comment: #28
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:54 AM
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Hi all! Long-time lurker, first-time poster here.
I could be the wife in the first letter. Here's a suggestion to possibly explain her lack of initiating sex with her husband. It's possible that any physical signs of affection he shows to her automatically lead to sex and any signs she shows to him, he assumes will lead there as well. That's how my husband is. We've only been together for 4 years and married for less than 2. I'm 30, he's 38 and we have a 5 month old. I'm nowhere near menopause.
I've spoken to him before about this, letting him know that I would appreciate a nice long kiss when we greet each other, but any time I try he assumes I'm about to take him to the bedroom; so we stick to quick pecks. Sometimes I just want physical affection and touch without it leading to sexual intimacy. So I avoid getting too cuddly with him for that reason. I'm not saying it's right or that he's completely to blame. I'm just offering it up as an explanation for the LW1's wife's behavior.
Your thoughts??
Comment: #29
Posted by: JuJu
Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:14 AM
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Re: JuJu
thanks for a great post and point of view!
I think the thing that bothers me both about your post and the LW's letter is that there is a HUGE communication gap. Have you tried any type of marital counseling? Sometimes a third party can give a different perspective on things for both of you.
The LW may be in the same position, but from what we see in the letter, we don't get that. we hear HIS side, which is why your opinion is so great to see. In your case, an objective opinion may help. good luck, and thanks again.
Comment: #30
Posted by: nanchan
Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:06 PM
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Re: JuJu
Thank you for the input. In fact, I was thinking that myself as I was married to a man whow as exactly like that. But as LW1 seems to be an otherwise good husband and my (now late) ex wasn't, I wasn't sure the comparison was suitable and so I didn't bring it up. Makes a lot of sense. One thing is for sure, if that is all he has to complain about after 30 years, there are millions of men who would love to trade places with him. At least she doesn't just lay there like a dead body with her eyes closed and thinking of England.
Continue posting! The more the merrier!
Comment: #31
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:11 PM
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Re: Lise B
"What *I* suggest is that she tap her old partners and tell them that her husband is worn out on his feet and doesn't mind."
That IS what nanchan said... read the rest after "want it/own it"
Re LW1 - nanchan is right in that if there's a problem and one partner is unhappy it's not as easy as saying "well everything really isn't so bad so stop complaining". HOWEVER, sometimes you have to accept something the way it is and be happy with it, even if it isn't what you would consider perfect. In this case I don't see what more LW1 can do except try counseling, but if that doesn't work, his options are to stick with it and accept it, stick with it and be miserable, or divorce. Honestly, he has a willing partner, and that seems like it should be enough. But only LW1 can decide that.
BTW, LW1's wife might also just not care for gooey snuggling and stuff. I'm like that to a certain extent. Not close to LW1's wife as he describes her, but I'm not a cuddler. When I'm in bed going to sleep, or on the couch watching tv, I like my space. I don't like to hold hands and I don't care for hugging all that much (sometimes it's nice, but I get impatient quickly and want to go do something else other than stand there). I don't like making out if I'm in the middle of something. LW1's wife may be like that as well. Counseling might help them find a compromise because LW1's wife should make an effort on occasion out of respect and love for her husband. But it's easy for us to say that on the other side of a computer.
Comment: #32
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:15 PM
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Re: nanchan
Like I said, my ex was not a good husband and so I hesitated to draw a pararrel; between the two, but I do know that my ex's idea of counselling was to fix ME, because he was always right. I know because I tried. I don't know about JuJu's husband and LW1.
Also, I'm assuming that he is a good husband because he does his share of the household and they've been together for 30 years, but... the truth is, we only have his side of the story. We have no idea how he treats her behind closed doors and if he isn't another one like my ex.
Comment: #33
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:16 PM
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LW1: If she's giving you praise and not turning you down, she IS sexually attracted to you. She's not putting on a show? Did she before your marriage? No? Then you're asking her to change something fundamental about herself, telling her she's not good enough.
Let's imagine your wife wrote in, saying, "My husband has sex with me, and says I'm pretty and desirable, but he won't sing to me in public. That's all I want from him -- is this proof that he loves me enough to go against his personality, which is rather shy and retiring. But if he really desired me, he'd sing me love songs to show that indulging my desire is more important than his comfort zone. I don't feel desirable because he won't sing to me in restaurants, while we're waiting for a movie to start, at his company Christmas party. My last boyfriend majored in voice, and never had a problem serenading me anywhere, anytime. If he loved me, he'd do this for me, right?"
Well? You running through some practice scales yet?
Comment: #34
Posted by: hedgehog
Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:21 PM
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@Zoe
I know she said that. I wasn't contesting what she said about LW2, I was pointing out that a parallel could be drawn between her advice about LW2 and LW1.
JuJu made a very good point, and I know from experience that this could be the problem here. I don't know about LW1 and JuJu's husband, but my ex was so obsessed that I had to lock myself into the bathroom to be able to pee in peace, just the fact that I'd be dropping my panties was enough to get him started. Affection and tenderness were out of the question as they all lead to the same thing. It didn't matter how much I gave him and how enthusiastically I participated, it wasn't enough, it was never enough, NOTHING was ever enough.
But with him, there were plenty of other issues as well, with the sex being but the expression of a general control/destruct mode MO. We don't know if there isn't more to this in this case either, as the LW presents himself quite well. My ex would have too, if he had been the one to write that letter.
I LIKE sex, by the way, and miss it when I don't have it, but having someone panting after you with a wild look 24/7 makes you feel like a blow-up doll and it's a huge turn-off. Among other things that he did.
Comment: #35
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:30 PM
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Re: hedgehog
Hee hee , in fact I did have a boyfriend, Mister Crazy Singer who did exactly that, serenade me in public at the drop of a hat. I found it immensely embarassing, and I'm a singer myself!
Comment: #36
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:33 PM
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LW 2 - Perhaps LW's husband is going thru MAN - O - PAUSE !!
Umm, you know, like, he could be, right ?
Comment: #37
Posted by: Gwen
Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:55 PM
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@nanchan - Maybe HE is unhappy because HE is fixated on a small issue in a good marriage and making it all about him. Mike H spoke to this possibility. If this is the case, then SHE could be the one advised to see a counselor because her husband is SELFISH in requiring her to change a quirk of her personality rather than accepting her as she is in what is otherwise a very good marriage. This scenario would make him fixated on HIS happiness and dismissive of HER happiness, which is a controlling behavior
Just saying, this is a potential scenario and if you have a good marriage overall then be thrilled with it. Some people look for prolems, some for perfection. Only one is possible to find, but actively searching for both leads to a lot of dissatisfaction on the part of both parties.
Comment: #38
Posted by: kristen
Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:56 PM
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@hedgehog, exactly -- maybe this is the one thing she can't do for him in the bedroom, and it's not exactly fair to suggest she MUST change to make him happy, especially if she's an active partner and he's happy in every other way. That just makes me a little uncomfortable, that one partner is allowed to dictate the bedroom behavior of the other so completely. Some things people are just not into!
If this is the case, the only real issue is that she's been unable to communicate this to him more effectively. ("I'm sorry, darling, but I just can't do it. I'm turned on by the thought of a man pursuing me. The idea of me being the aggressor just kills any desire I have for you, which I'm sure you'll agree defeats the purpose!")
Comment: #39
Posted by: Mike H
Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:03 PM
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LW1: "If you loved me enough you'd change," is a dangerous game to play in a relationship and you've played it for 30 years. You're not too quick, are you?
LW2: You've been on this planet 68 years and you're still waiting for other people to make you happy? Wow, what a waste.
Comment: #40
Posted by: Diana
Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:06 PM
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@Gwen, exactly! :-) And keeping in with today's theme.
@nanchan, perhaps every response from now on needs to be re-written with the proper menopausal advice added in!
Comment: #41
Posted by: Mike H
Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:12 PM
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LW1 -- I'm not going to say, "count your blessings," nor am I going to say, "get thee to counseling and/or a lawyer." And I sure as HELL am not going to bring up menopause! But I am going to say that after 30 years, you're kidding yourself if you think it's going to change. So, here's what you need to do: decide whether or not this is a deal-breaker for you. If so, then it's time to end this marriage. If not, then it's time you accepted your wife as she is, because 30 years later, she is NOT going to change. I can never remember who it was who said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different response/result. Well, by that definition, you are out of your freakin' mind, my friend.
LW2 -- as others have already suggested, getting "angry" about this is a bit of an overreaction, unless the guy was taking you dancing four nights a week before and/or promised to do this and then once you got married he suddenly stopped. Ask your husband if he would be OK with you dancing with other men, and then assuming that he is, let your former dance partners know. It really is that simple. Of course, there's the chance that your husband is NOT going to be OK with this. If that's the case, then you have to decide if this is a deal-breaker for you or not and then act accordingly.
Gee, doesn't that bit of advice sound familiar?
Comment: #42
Posted by: Lisa
Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:26 PM
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RE the Hot Jockey Short---it was stated that the wife should seek counseling because of her husband's obsessing over her one little quirk?
No, he should be in counseling by himself, I bet alot more would come out. If she were allowed to start listing all the things SHE OVERLOOKS because he is the one she loves--I am willing to bet that list could get long.
Is he using this one point to nitpick her out of their relatoinship?
The cute play of words MAN O PAUSE gets chuckles but a woman gets shot down with that phrase all the time. The laughter is belittling.
So he finds her quirk just a bit disturbing and he needs to fix her. Unless she has a great sense of humor and understand for people of this character--she should stop responding at all for a 2 week period (or what she would fee effective.)
Let him fix himself and then tell his wife he is sorry. We don't hear from his wife saying YES he does half of my work at home while we both hold down full time jobs. He said nothing about being pregnant with his children NOR raising them 100% when they were small. He wants rewards from us announcing how much work he does in the home. Stack those hours against the last 30 years and see the tally. Does this guy tell us how good of shape he is in? Does he say well I shower daily and change my underwear? Got to think about these things from the other side of the plate that we are not hearing about. Just how good HE is.
After 30 years and he is whining now--is he looking for an excuse for a mid life crisis--does he have a hot chick waiting for answers from Annie/US? It seems like he wants justification for what he has already decided to do. And he knows after 30 years things may be set in stone. And he is just changing to a different rock. Will his young little stone see the old moss on this aged rock? With the old bad habits that come with it?
Comment: #43
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:31 PM
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LW3 -- if you're out there reading this, I just wanted to thank you for sharing your perspective. It never occurred to me that it could be an issue of "bad timing" and that perhaps if the original LW tries again, s/he might have better luck if the biological family is in a better place (be it financially, emotionally, whatever) than they were when s/he initially reached out to them. And of course, as you noted, the adoptee needs to be prepared for any outcome when reaching out to the biological family.
Comment: #44
Posted by: Lisa
Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:56 PM
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Re: Lisa
That would be Einstein :)
Comment: #45
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:09 PM
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Thanks for the warm welcome! I love reading what you all have to say and I never comment because you all seem to cover all points of view.
As for my hubby, he is a very caring, thoughtful man and hardly makes a deal out of me not initiating. He has mentioned it to me once or twice and I usually make the effort for a few weeks, then slip back into my old ways. He is very patient with me, thank my lucky stars. I'm one of those people who doesn't get turned on until I'm smack in the middle of it, so when I initiate, it's because I do it for him and not because I'm turned on. I'll get there eventually, but I never get excited out of the blue the way he does. And it has nothing to do with how much or how little he helps out around the house/with the baby. We both do our fair share.
I have spoken to my hubby about showing affection without it leading to the bedroom and he agrees to do it and slips back into his old ways as well. We both need to work on our issues. With a 5 month old at home now, it seems almost impossible. We both work full time and, after a long day, have to come home and entertain/feed/bathe/change/feed the baby and neither one of us in the mood. The difference is, he could probably go at the drop of a hat if I wanted to. It just takes so much more for me to get that giddyup. And I wish I could say it was due to the baby, but I was that way before getting pregnant. :-(
Comment: #46
Posted by: JuJu
Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:57 PM
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For the Adopted Child, please be aware that some people just don't want to be found. I found my long lost relatives and they were decidedly unfriendly and rude. Wish I had never contacted them. So be prepared for anything from warmth to unfriendliness.
Comment: #47
Posted by: Carol Anne
Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:32 PM
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Re: the long lost child being reunited with his or her birth mother --
A few years ago, my sister got a call from a boy she had given up for adoption when she was 15. (She surrendered him to adoption when he was two days old, having no way to care for him herself.) At first there was great excitement about meeting him. Then when she and her kids met him, there were problems. He was alcoholic, self destructive, a drug abuser who had been in and out of jail. She felt bad about it, but after a time she stopped seeking contact with him. He let go of contacting her too, probably because the reunion had been disappointing for him too, when he saw how flawed she and her family were.
One thing she learned, and I think he learned, was that longing for something can be very different from finding it. For twenty-five years she had thought about him, felt guilty, and wondered if he was okay. Apparently he also felt lost in the world. Because he was adopted, he felt, I guess, that whatever he was longing for would be found when he found his birth mother. It's sad but it often doesn't work out that way. ("Once upon a time" fairy tales on TV notwithstanding).
I know this is obvious.... it's been said before. I just felt like throwing it in. I'm glad some reunions are happy. It would be nice if they all were. But I think sometimes a great emotional expectation is created, and there's a real crash for everyone involved if it doesn't work out as hoped. Some families may avoid responding to an attempt at contact because they're ashamed or embarrassed about their own circumstances. Or sometimes there was no bonding on the mother's part, as sad as that is, and the best choice she can make is to refrain from contact because she doesn't want to hurt her birth son or daughter by revealing that.
Comment: #48
Posted by: sarah morrow
Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:52 PM
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Re: the long lost child being reunited with his or her birth mother --
A few years ago, my sister got a call from a boy she had given up for adoption when she was 15. (She surrendered him to adoption when he was two days old, having no way to care for him herself.) At first there was great excitement about meeting him. Then when she and her kids met him, there were problems. He was alcoholic, self destructive, a drug abuser who had been in and out of jail. She felt bad about it, but after a time she stopped seeking contact with him. He let go of contacting her too, probably because the reunion had been disappointing for him too, when he saw how flawed she and her family were.
One thing she learned, and I think he learned, was that longing for something can be very different from finding it. For twenty-five years she had thought about him, felt guilty, and wondered if he was okay. Apparently he also felt lost in the world. Because he was adopted, he felt, I guess, that whatever he was longing for would be found when he found his birth mother. It's sad but it often doesn't work out that way. ("Once upon a time" fairy tales on TV notwithstanding).
I know this is obvious.... it's been said before. I just felt like throwing it in. I'm glad some reunions are happy. It would be nice if they all were. But I think sometimes a great emotional expectation is created, and there's a real crash for everyone involved if it doesn't work out as hoped. Some families may avoid responding to an attempt at contact because they're ashamed or embarrassed about their own circumstances. Or sometimes there was no bonding on the mother's part, as sad as that is, and the best choice she can make is to refrain from contact because she doesn't want to hurt her birth son or daughter by revealing that.
Comment: #49
Posted by: sarah morrow
Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:52 PM
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LW1 - Maybe the wife thinks she IS making an effort to initiate sometimes and it's just not blatantly obvious to the husband. A lot of women might feel uncomfortable just getting into bed at night and saying, "Hey Bob, wanna do me?" (maybe a lot of men would feel uncomfortable being that forward too, not any men I've known lol). Some people are just shyer and more reserved even with someone they've known for a long time. But, does she ever get in bed wearing a nightgown that's a little sexier than usual? Or ever make a special effort to look extra nice and make a special dinner some evenings? Things like that could be little "I'm interested in being intimate tonight" signs and men aren't known for being that keen on observation and maybe hubby is totally oblivious.
There was something like this in an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond... Ray was on his "you always say no when I want sex!" whine and his wife threw back, "what about the other night when I was in the mood and you were too busy watching sports?" and he was confused as to when she meant, so she clarified, "remember, I asked you to rub my back" and he clued in, "Rub my back means sex??"
This doesn't really explain why the LW's wife never initiates even a hug or kiss, but she may just not be someone who expresses love physically. Much of my family is like that, there's obvious love there, but we're not very showy about it. I'm 24 years old and have never seen my parents hug or kiss, like not when they say hello or goodbye or whatever, but I know they love each other.
Or maybe she plain old doesn't like initiating. I'm a very sexual person but I'm not really one to make the first move, even on someone I know isn't going to reject me or be "too tired" or whatever. I just prefer being passive or submissive even.
Comment: #50
Posted by: Alexandra
Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:26 AM
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LW1 mentions that they have tried all kinds of marital aids and videos, but nothing helps. Huh? If she likes sex so much, why would they need to try them in the first place? I can't see where they would have anything to do with getting her to initiate sex. I'm thinking maybe she doesn't like it as much as she claims.
Comment: #51
Posted by: C Meier
Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:19 PM
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LW2
If Bob is the most loving, kind and generous man you have ever met, then he won't mind you requesting permission to dance with the other gentlemen at the dance hall. His desire for dance doesn't have to be an exact ectype of yours. And in return, you should also try to join in other activities that he enjoys.
```
Comment: #52
Posted by: Word A Day Mate
Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:07 PM
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