Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

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LW3 refers to the first letter on 25 January 2013.

LW1

Martha should have never assumed she could hang out at the rental house for a few hours to spare herself and her friend the cost of an extra hotel night at your "destination" wedding. On top of that Martha's friend certainly did show poor judgement when she left her toddler to be supervised by a bunch of people in a prenuptial frenzy only hours from the big event, and the unmitigated gall of making the child a sandwich- Lord knows that would test the best of us! Surely the cost of that sandwich set you husband's stepfather back a good fifty cents or more! I can see why your mother-in-law was upset. They probably had to cut back on the reception because of it.

Maybe your mom is on to something and your in-laws are just unbearable people. Perhaps avoiding them is a sound strategy.

LW1- You say nothing is resolved, but it doesn't sound like it isn't resolved to your mother. From your letter, she is DONE dealing with your mother in law. If she is okay with depriving herself of the pleasure of coming to your child's birthday parties because she doesn't want to deal with your mil, that's her right. She likely doesn't have anything nice to say to your mil and is trying to spare YOU more drama. Leave her alone and deal with your mil yourself.

LW1 -
So if I sum up the situation... Martha is entitled, immature and forgetful of her child's needs, your MIL has a temper and a mouth, and your mother is a sulky narcissist who behaves like a spoiled, bratty grade-schooler. Nice bunch of clucking hens you've got there, pecking at each other and trying to claw each other's eyes out.

Well, at least your MIL was big enough to apologise, while your mother is pulling a queen bee number, harumphing in her corner with her nose up in the air, in an effort to wrench the spotlight back to her precious self.

You've let this become your fight. Stop that. Leave your mother steam in her own juice if she wants to sulk for the rest of her life. The less you pay attention to her shenanigans and assorted tantrums, and the more it's her problem alone. I predict she will stop being such a drama queen once she realises it doesn't net her the expected attention.

LW2 -
How do you deal with the female bullying? By turning the joke on her. If you have an all-out drag-out fight with the woman, your wife will be the first to blame you.

The real red flag I see here is that your wife doesn't back you up. This woman is not on your side. Unless she can be made to change her attitude, this is going to permeate other situations, and I see troubled waters ahead for your marriage.

LW3 -
There are just as many delicious recipes in Jewish cooking as there are in any other culture, and there are superior and bad cooks in every ethnicity. It's perfectly possible to make gefilte fish, matza ball soup or bows & kasha without it necessarily being Kosher - whether or not it's Kosher has to do with the way the kitchen is kept, and not with the recipe itself. Being Kosher or not doesn't influence whether the recipes are blah or scrumptious, half-baked or a chef's piece of art.

And the LW is right that Jewish cookbooks will be a gold mine of lactose-free recipes, because of the separation between meat and dairy in Kosher kitchens. And JFTR, as high blood pressure is quite prevalent in the Jewish community, Kosher grocery stores or the Kosher section of a large chain will have quite a selection of salt-free products.

LW 2 I don't see how the wife can "stand up for" her husband when he gets teased for being beat by a woman. That is exactly what happened! Is she supposed to deny it? Or say, "Don't tease the poor baby, he is embarrassed enough" That would make him look even weaker!
His best course is to laugh off the teasing and say something like:"Well, she married me for other talents."

LW1: Was Martha even invited to the wedding, and if so, Why? She's the ex and the 5 year old is too young to enjoy a wedding. LW2: I love Sarah's suggestion, #5.

It posted right away! So, Thanks for the suggestions, nanchan. I practically copied and pasted your answer.

Re: sarah stravinska
Of course, that would be his best course of action, but his wife COULD snap at the bully to stop being such a bitch, instead of encouraging her by her tacit approval.

Yeah, that IS what happened. If it comes to that, some people really are ugly, or fat, or walking funny. They become fair game, and it's perfectly okay to persecute them because of that? Not in MY book.

Re: bugz
Martha was invited to the wedding but I invited her in January and she didn't say anything until a week before saying she was coming. She brought my niece (9) and her son (3). My Mil can be very over reactive about things sometimes but she is a good person. The problem wasn't Martha making a sandwich, it was her, the kids and her friend showing up uninvited and unexpected to the vacation house on the day of the wedding and expecting her son to be watched while they left (which was for a good hour), saying she was getting food for all of them, kids included and showing up with no food for her son. In the meantime it was only 4 hours until the wedding and everyone was trying to get ready, the parents needed to leave to pick up the food for the reception and return before the wedding. So my MIL and Mom were both stressed. My mom is a wonderful person who is loving and empathetic to a fault and lets people walk all over her, and non-confrontational. While my MIL is very vocal, a hard worker and loving to her family and friends. She had never met "Martha" before and MIL is a lot like me in the fact that we hate feeling like we are imposing on anyone. She over reacted and apologized, but "Martha" also flew off the handle. My mom understood where MIL was coming from because "Martha" has acted the same way in her home. I just want to know if there is anyway I can salvage the break and at least make my mom tolerant of my MIL.

Sarah makes a very good point: If this neighbor is so amused by a man being beaten at wrestling by his wife, imagine how much more obnoxious she'll be if he relies on his wife to stand up for him rather than standing up for himself. If this woman really is his wife's friend, they should both tell her to back off; if she's just the neighborhood busybody, it's best to ignore her.

Re: Bride
Not if your mother insist on sulking and refuses all peace offerings. Why is she holding such a grudge, considering she knows perfectly well how Martha is? It's not like your MIL ruined the entire wedding, and Martha was the one at fault anyway.

At any rate, you cannot make anyone see sense who doesn't want to. You say your mother is a wonderful person, but she is being very unreasonable right now. I have no idea what her motivation is for acting like that, but I think you've been getting very good advice so far. You shouldn't be the one jumping through hoops trying to make her see reason. In the end, it's up to her to get over it, and act like the wonderful, loving and empathic person you say she is, and the mature adult she ought to be at here age.

Thank you for chiming in BTL and the best of luck with your new marriage!

Re: Bride
What I'm really trying to say is, if your mother is due to finally come to terms with this, she will on her on after the dust has settled. In the meantime, stop stressing over something you can't control and leave it alone.

Re LW2: Nosy neighbor says, "I saw your wife beat you at wrestling, you wimp!" Respond, "That wasn't a contest, it was foreplay. But thanks for letting us know we have a peeping-tom in the neighborhood!"

Oh for Pete's sake, LW2, be happy she beat you--if you had beat her, the nosy neighbor would have called the police and you would have been in jail for domestic violence. You had to let her win regardless. Either way, your wife has a mean streak and I would give her the heave-ho. You deserve better.

I can't understand why Mom is sacrificing time with her grandson over this. She wasn't the one who got yelled at. Was she offended for Martha's sake? Was she upset because Martha left with the Bride's niece, presumably Mom's grand-daughter?

Reading between the lines of the letter, I was able to gather that the MIL blew up because she was having to deal with a moocher on a very stressful day. The only thing I couldn't figure out was why a surprise guest, dragging three other people with her, was allowed to stick around. Bride cleared that up in the comments: Martha was invited, but didn't RSVP until very late in the game.

A very unfortunate situation. Sadly, Bride, the only person who can change your Mom's attitude is Mom herself.

LW1 - I can honestly see why your MIL went off on Martha. I'm not saying it was right of her to do that. But I would've been livid in her shoes. You asked, "I just want to know if there is anyway I can salvage the break and at least make my mom tolerant of my MIL. " You can't force your mother to accept your MIL's apology. If I were you, I'd sit your mother down and say something like this - "This is the last time I'm going to bring this up. But I really miss you at my events. I know you don't like my MIL. Fine...nobody says you have to. But I would really like you to come. You don't have to talk to my MIL. You don't have to be friends. Please reconsider coming to my events. I don't want to you to miss out of things because you're mad at her," and then drop it. If she chooses to stay home, then that's her problem. There's nothing you can do about it.

LW2 - Am I the only one who thinks it's strange that he and his wife had a wrestling match?? Anyway...if your wife won't stand up for you (and believe me, I know how that feels. My exH wouldn't stand up for me ever), then you should stand up for yourself. I LOVE Jeanne's response about it being foreplay and them being a peeping Tom. Brilliant!!

And if someone makes fun of your wife, remember what she said to you and tell her that she has to deal with them on her own.

I agree with Lise regard sarah S (#5). It's okay to make fun of someone if it's the truth?? I don't think so. So if someone is fat, then it's okay to call them Thunder Thighs or Fatty McFat Fat? If someone has acne, it's okay to call them Pizza Face or say, "Woah...nice zits!" It's not nice to make fun of people...period.

@Bride, LW1, the blending of two families when their children get married can be a bit of a dicey affair, but for it to be successful the parents on both sides need to show some flexibility, compromise, and diplomacy -- or else their children (you and your husband) will be put in the middle of a tug-of-war and no one will be happy.

I'd make one last pitch to your mother along those lines -- "I really hope you can find a way to get over it, because your behavior isn't just hurting you, it's hurting me, my husband, and other members of our family. This was one incident that went badly, but everyone has their bad days, and she apologized." And then let her be, and invite her, and if she still chooses not to come to these parties, just shrug and look disappointed and say that you hope she'll change her mind.

But don't give her too much more attention that that, because I think there is some merit to the idea that she's using this situation to continue to keep attention, even if its hard for you to see her in that light. Holding a grudge like this is just simply not a mature, adult reaction.

LW1: Have the annoying, intrusive, inconsiderate Martha killed, and invite both Mom and MIL to the funeral. Perhaps they'll be able to bury the hatchet there. A gathering after the funeral often has a deli platter or sandwiches, so hopefully the child can eat from that and there won't be any tension over food.

LW1 - You can't fix your family. All you can do is extricate yourself as much as possible. Be there when the mood is good, and back away when things get heated. It's not your fight.

LW2 - Haha, beat up by a girl! Sorry. But yeah, next time one of these bitches starts up, think of the cruelest, meanest most evil thing to say and say it. Bonus points if it's true! Like "at least my mom didn't die of cancer like yours did" or "haha, you weigh, what, 300 pounds? I bet no one can beat you in a sumo match!" - something like that. If there's nothing true you can think of, something like "I hope you develop dementia but slowly so that you are acutely aware of losing your mind for quite some time after your family abandons you in a nursing home" said with an impassive face can work. It'll shut them up but they might not like you much after. If your wife starts up, tell her "at least I don't get passive-aggressive enjoyment out of watching people tease YOU."

But really, do you WANT your wife to stick up for you? "Wife, come help, these mean people are teasing me!"

But yeah. Just get really mean, really fast. It'll work.

Re: Michelle

If they start it, yes, you can make fun of someone else. You just have to make sure it's so mean that is shuts them right up, instead of being kinda mean which might just start a yelling match or a slap-fight. That's the best way to teach mouthy bitches and jerks to stfu.

I also like Jane's suggestion but it won't stop anything. The wife probably told them, or they were play-fighting in the yard. The teasing will continue.

Re: Dorothy P

Haha, that got really heavy, really fast!

Re: Bride (#9)

First, thanks for checking in.

To answer your question – "I just want to know if there is anyway I can salvage the break and at least make my mom tolerant of my MIL" – I don't know. It may mean getting them to sit down together with a neutral third party and have them talk this out. (Who knows? There may be other issues under the surface that come out.) It's worth a try.

And regardless of the outcome, drop it, because it sounds unhealthy to everyone involved.

As for your MIL's confrontation with Martha – While the MIL was certainly justified in being very upset over Martha's oafish behavior, I'd apologize for the tone of voice used, but not the general assessment (that she showed up uninvited to the guest house as everyone was trying to get ready for the wedding and expected them to watch the kids while Martha and her friend galavanted around town, even if for only an hour). I'd suggest to the MIL to (if it hasn't been done already) once again firmly express to Martha disapproval of the situation and that the expectation is that it never happens again, and then tell her that the issue is dropped forever.

(As far as Martha goes – she shouldn't have been allowed to the wedding in the first place if she failed to RSVP "'Martha,' surprised us by coming" – to me that says that if there were RSVP's requested, she didn't.)

LW1--Frankly, 'Martha' sounds like quite the little bitch. How day she insinuate herself into your family celebration by showing up uninvited to not only the destination wedding, but also to the rented cabin. To add insult to injury she then proceeded to use your family as a free babysitting surface while she was off gallivanting with her friends and then had the audacity to feed her child with your food! I applaud your mother-in-law for going ballistic and giving this incredibly rude woman a piece of her mind. That your mother has decided to throw a tantrum and sulk is her choice. If she chooses to miss your child's milestones and avoid family functions in order to maintain a grudge against someone who was perfectly within her rights to tell Martha off then so be it. My advice is to tell your Mom point blank to stop acting like a child and grow up. Martha was in the wrong and so is your mother.

LW2--If your wife beat you in a wrestling match and then you have to write in to a couple of advice columnists in order to fend off the inevitable sissy comments, then I'm sorry but I have to wonder if you've been emasculated to the point where you appear to be a spineless whimpering simp. Try growing a pair. The next time your nosy busybody of a neighbor makes a crack about your being beaten up by a woman, try quipping " You must have been conceived by anal sex. There is no way being that much of an asshole is natural." Then calmly walk away.

LW 2:

Zoe has a good point regarding saying something mean that at the very least might shut them up. We live in an awesome neighborhood with great neighbors...aside from an elderly couple who are constantly negative, nosy, dramatic and rude. I was stuck on modified bed rest for the last trimester of my pregnancy last year, and at one point shared with them how much I was looking forward to having the baby so that I could resume some physical activity. The wife snorted and exclaimed that she couldn't wait to see me attempt to go for walks and such with a baby. Apparently in her world, having a child makes one too exhausted for light neighborhood walks with a stroller in tow...

I looked her straight in the eye and said that I needed something to look forward to because after 3 months of bed rest (and 6 prior months of an exhausting pregnancy), I'd kill myself knowing that I was to remain house-bound indefinitely. She was shocked by the statement...and never spoke to me again.

Trust me when I say that we are not out much by her cutting us out, and truthfully, we were relieved to be done with her. While I don't routinely advocate getting down to the level of jerks, it can help rid you of them!

LW1: It took me two readings to understand what the problem was. So Bride's mom is mad because MIL blew up at a stranger who was eating her food and staying at a rental house, without permission, that MIL (and hubby) were paying for? Bride's mom was so mad she more or less protested the wedding? Hot damn. I don't even know where to start. At a minimum, Mom has some real jealousy issues with the in-laws. Perhaps she felt second class, because they were the ones who paid for the rental house. Or maybe MIL isn't psycho, so the daughter gets along better with her, rather than her own unstable mom (Sorry, but to have that strong of a reaction to something so petty? She's emotionally unstable.) Maybe Mom is jealous of their relationship. Either way, she needs to let this go. I do feel sorry for the bride being put in the middle.

Bride, you mention that the 9 year old is your niece but only refer to the boy as her son. Is Martha's friend the father of this boy? I am getting the idea that your Mom's anger my have more to do with relationships within your family and feeling that your mil was disrespectful of the grandchildren/child. I think you need to discover what exactly it was that angered your mother so much. I agree that Mom is acting out in a strange way- since she wasn't involved in 'the fight', but perhaps there is more to this (in your mom's eyes) than you are telling. I would be interested in knowing the relationship between 'the friend' and your ex-sil. Something just does not add up. Sorry for being so nosey- but since you came BTL we can at lease ask questions.

I have a kind of different take on LW2 -- I'm assuming that because he said a "nosy neighbor" witnessed this, she either spied over the fence because they were in the backyard, or she saw it through the windows.

So, for me, I would have been quick to say to her: "OMG, you saw that? I'm so embarrassed! Usually my wife and I don't engage in that kind of foreplay in front of an audience. Please tell me you didn't see what happened later, when we were in the bedroom!"

Believe me, if you make it sexual, and make her out to be a pervert for prying into your love life, she'll back off. I think your wife isn't on your side because you seem so emasculated by it all, instead of standing up for yourself in a clever, witty way. Be a confident man, not a wuss, about this, and find a way to flip it back on the nosy neighbor.

And, if you aren't already incorporating a little wrestling in your intimate life, maybe now's the time to start!

Re: Mike H

I tried that once. There were injuries involved and none of them was mine, but I so mad after that I refused any further action. I guess my primitive monkey brain can't differentiate between sexy wrestling and real, I-have-to-win fighting. Hah.

LW3's points are helpful, but it seems to me the original LW's problem was more about her friends accepting a change of any kind; or else her friends fearing she would obsess about this topic and that they would be subjected to endless repetitions of a discussion of keeping kosher.

Bride, is there any possibility that your MIL's reaction to Martha's obnoxious behavior made it more difficult for your mom to see her grandchild? If I was your mom, I would be pissed that your mil didn't step a bit lighter with Martha because an unreasonable ex-dil could prevent access to grandkids.
People are being a bit harsh with the mother here, but I strongly suspect that this was hardly the first offense by the mil in the mother's mind. More like the last straw... If it truly was the first time the mil had done something like this, then, yes, mom is being unreasonable.

What is it you would like your wife to do? Put the neighbor in a choke hold and make her apologize? The more you squirm the more they will tease. You could ask her if she will be a witness in the suit you are bringing against your wife for abuse and that you have given your lawyer her name and she will be subpoenaed next week. At that point you can leave it alone and let the women fight it out. Then you can tease her when the wife takes her down.

Bride,
First, thank you for posting BTL to give us more information. I wish you a happy, healthy marriage. To sum up your situation:

1) Your MIL got angry with your brother's ex Martha (who is also the mother of your niece) while everyone was prepping for the wedding because she was under a lot of stress and Martha was a boor.

2) Your mother (whom you call loving, empathetic to a fault and non-confrontational) decided to withdraw her attention from you on your wedding day: NOT helping you into your dress, NOT paying any attention during the ceremony, and locking herself in a bedroom during the reception and refusing to come out.

3) Your MIL apologized “profusely” to your mother for her outburst.

4) Your mother refuses to attend anything where your in-laws are present.

5) You are a parent.

First, your mother's behavior is NOT loving and empathetic. If she was, there would be no issue, because her loving and empathetic personality couldn't stand to see her daughter in pain and she would do everything in her power to make it right.

Second, your mother is behaving like a child. You are a parent. Would you accept this behavior from your own children? Just like a child, if she cannot get positive attention from you, she will seek negative attention, and your mother is doing exactly that. WHY she is doing this, only she knows, and it does not really matter; she is an adult and should behave in an adult manner. She is cutting of her nose to spite her face.

Third, where is your father in all of this? Has he died? Have your parents divorced?

You have been getting great advice so far from other posters. Have one last talk with your mother:
“Mom, I love you and always will. I want you to be a part of my life and that of my family. I'm going to treat you like the adult woman you are and not as a child. Therefore, if you choose to stay away from me and my family after we have invited you to be with us, because your refuse to be in the same room as my in-laws, that will be YOUR CHOICE. I will not discuss it with you; I will not coax you; I will not attempt to change your mind. I will miss you, of course, but I will respect your decision.”

Then STICK TO IT! Your first obligation now is your husband and son, not your mother. Let the situation with your mother go. You cannot change other people, only your own behavior. You have a stressful enough life with a new marriage and a new child; you don't need to take on more stress.

Re: Chris

"Frankly, 'Martha' sounds like quite the little bitch. How day she insinuate herself into your family celebration by showing up uninvited to not only the destination wedding, but also to the rented cabin."

Actually, Bride states in post #9 the following: "Martha was invited to the wedding but I invited her in January and she didn't say anything until a week before saying she was coming."

FWIW, until Bride's post, I also thought that Martha was not invited to the wedding but decided to show (and was going to ask that question). I am sure glad Bride cleared the air on that.

(And yes Chris, I am sober. Just like I am every day.)

Penny (#25):

Bride, if you're still here and read this, perhaps you can clear the air, but from what I understand, both children are hers – the 3- and 9-year-olds. It does seem unclear who the father of the kids (it could be one or two different fathers) is, or who the friend is.

All:

I'm going to be the first to admit this, but this letter seemed confusing to me. I did have to go back and forth between the letter and her (Bride's) BTL post to to even half understand what was going on. My original post was the best I could do – the suggestion of counseling between the mother and MIL (are they even fighting?) and then a calmer consultation with Martha over her earlier behavior on the wedding day and the expectation that it won't happen again.

LW2: Gee, I'd hate to see what happens if you won the "wrestling" match. Probably a huge knock on the door and someone yelling "Police!"?

First things first – pull down the window shades when you two decide to have sex and a little foreplay beforehand. It's a shame that that's a suggestion, but with your neighborhood Alice Kravitz getting her jollies out of spying on her neighbors, you're left with no choice. Then sternly tell her next time she says something about what she supposedly saw to mind her own goddamned business.

As far as your wife goes, she's probably of the opinion that, "Well, he's a big boy. He can defend himself." Just sit down with her and gently but firmly tell her that you want her to stick up for you when Alice Kravitz tries to spy on and/or gossip about you. That's all there needs to be said on that.

LW3: Not much I can add except your diet is your choice and your business. You don't need anyone's approval. You're lucky that everyone in your family adjusted – some families have people who never will.

Bride,
It sounds to me like your mother is using the incident with Martha as justification for what I perceive as her jealousy of your MIL. If she were really just upset about Martha being yelled at, she would just be frosty to your MIL. Instead, she is punishing YOU. How childish do you have to be to lock yourself in a room and refuse to attend your own daughter's wedding? In your shoes, I wouldn't be trying to coax her to join any family events. I would address it one last time, and say that you would prefer her to attend, but she's being childish and you aren't going to continue to encourage it. I think your life will be calmer and more enjoyable if you disengage from that tug-of-war that she seems to want.
Good luck.

Vince needs to grow a pair.

Now Zoe, darlin', that's why I want to adopt you. Your first post nearly had me choking on my coffee. (Most people choke on my coffee anyway, but they're wusses.)

I thought the Annies gave right on advice to Bride - for whatever reasons Mom is choosing to be a hurt little drama queen, she needs to make the decision to get over it. I understand Bride wanting to peace-make, but sometimes that just feeds people's attention-getting maneuvers.

Michelle, I'm not into wrestling, myself, but my youngest daughter is. She's a very extroverted, physical kind of gal and was a natural fit in the Marines during her 5 year stint. Wrestling with the guys she dated was her way of culling them. If she could beat the guy, she wasn't interested (that's her girly side coming out). Needless to say, her husband (also a Marine, whom I call my "perfect son-in-law") passed the test. He can also live with her day to day, which is a lot harder than beating her at wrestling!

Chris, you are wonderful today. I was also thinking when I read LW2 "What a pussy!" But that isn't very nice and Miss Manners wouldn't approve so I just thought it. Maybe the little wuss could say to the nosy neighboy, "Hey, I'm a lover, not a fighter."

Chris, while I'm not in agreement with returning the wrestler's wife's friend's venom with venom, your comments are giving me a much needed laugh this morning.

I have to totally agree with you regarding the Bride. Martha is rude and needs to be told to just stay away.

@Lise: Why on earth would anyone make trafe gefilte fish? Why on earth would anyone make gefilte fish except for a seder? And why on earth did anyone think it was a good idea even then?

Re: Carla, Just chalk it up to another case of "The lord works in mysterious ways." Or she has a fabulous sense of humor. Ticks, mosquitos, and tsunamis are others to scratch your head about. I deal with the gefilte fish issue in the most mannerly fashion - "No thank you." I believe that the lord loves good manners.

LW2- Tell the woman you let your wife win because you didn't want to hurt her. IMO, Only a man who is an abuser would get in a wrestling match with his wife and fight to win.

p - sorry, you're wrong. I explained it in #36. Unless by "fight" you mean punches and black eyes. That's different. But the LW was talking about "wrestling" and so was I. A man who agrees to wrestle a woman who is out to win should also be out to win. Not hurt, mind you. Just win.

Mike H: Great advice for LW2! Make her uncomfortable ;) To add, I think if LW2 had that response the first time the neighbor said something, or if he had just laughed it off and joked about it, the neighbor probably wouldn't have brought it up again. She probably likes riling him up. If he had originally been “cool” about it, this whole thing would be over with. I have a friend who constantly gives another friend's husband a hard time about being “old.” He reacts so strongly to it, she won't stop. (and FWIW, he's only like 32, and we're all 27, 28.) I just think the guy comes off super sensitive and insecure. Laugh it off. It's not a big deal.

LW1 - Never, ever put yourself in the middle of a family dispute, even if (perhaps especially if) you are part of that family. In fact, it's never a good idea to be a "mediator" between ANY dispute between adults or kids who are not your own, unless you get paid for it.

@ Bride - further to #11 & 12
It would seem a little odd that your mother would choose a position that essentially sides with Martha, to the point where she's still fuming, sulking and pulling an "either them or me" emotional blackmail stunt, months after the event.

If she continues in the same vein, I can predict she will be one of these bitter old ladies in the nursing home, complaining to anyone who'll listen that her own daughter chose her in-laws over her and accusing you of turning everyone against her!

The truth of the matter is that she has no right to demand that you chose one or the other, and therefore put stress on your marriage, since they're HIS family.

Shirley is right that she is punishing you. That would seem to be completely out of character, coming from someone who is allegedly "a wonderful person, loving and empathic to a fault". Paranoia, vindictiveness and out-of-proportion tantrums and grudges can be the indication of the onset of a medical problem. Is this the first time she is that unreasonable? Perhaps she could use a complete physical.

Do ask in a neutral way when was the last time she had a complete check-up the minute there is an opening on the subject, but then again, you can't force her to go any more than you can forcibly get her off her wild horse.

If she does go, you can quietly contact her physician a few days ahead of time, explain the problem and ask that he checks for dementia, Alzheimer's or a brain tumour. Unless you have the necessary authorisations, he can't discuss her with you, but he can listen.

@Carla #38
LOL! You obviously dislike gefilte fish, while I love it. Perhaps because, not being Jewish, I haven't eaten it as much as you have. And I expect badly prepared gefilte fish is probably quite revolting, and I'm sure you've seen your share of it, along with the often sirupy wine served with it.

I don't know how to make gefilte fish, but matza ball soup, and bows & kasha, yes. Hm, haven't made that in a long time, I think I'll make some this week or the next!

Apparently, there isn't always gefilte fish at Seder meals these days... My friend Shirley went to one the day before yesterday, and there wasn't any. She was bitterly disappointed!

@Casey, I'm almost sure you're right -- it's *because* the husband reacted so poorly to the original dig that the neighbor keeps on needling him.

@Zoe, I always suspected you were an Amazon princess; now I'm sure.

LW1- I think Kelle's summary of what happened is spot on. Martha was a boor, and your MIL yelled at her for it. Good for her! You say she always acts like a jerk, so it was high time for someone to call her out on it. Now, your mom didn't like MIL's reaction, so instead of talking it out with her, like a grown up would have done, she ignores YOU, doesn't help YOU dress, hides in YOUR room and pouts all day. Nice. Does she always make you pay for what others do? Because I wonder if there is a pattern here, and you are so used to being the target of her anger, that you are not seeing it that way. You didn't invite Martha to stay at the rental house, you didn't tell her to feed her son the sandwich, you are blameless in all of this, yet your mom took it all out on you and your new husband. Odd dynamic, and you should do as all of the posters are suggesting, talk it out and refuse to engage any further.

LW2-At least three posters gave you great snappy comebacks, so memorize them and use them in the future. About your wife- she could have diffused the teasing by saying 'we were just fooling around' at the very least, or she could have said something more supportive, like 'but he has so many other great qualities". But, no, she tells you to stick up for yourself. She sounds like a passive-aggressive self centered person. So you know now, you are on your own in defending yourself. She does not have your back, so you are free to not have hers. If people call her names, if they are critical of her, you can just enjoy their remarks, and you do not have to defend her, ever. I imagine that that would go against your nature, but you should not defend anyone who stands by and lets other people insult you. If you don't have kids yet, I would gently suggest that you re-evaluate this relationship before you go there.

Re: Bride

The way I read your letter was from the perspective that perhaps your mom is an introvert and all the hubbub and petty arguing just exhausted her, causing her to become overwhelmed and to shut down instead of her shutting you out on purpose.

You say "My mom is a wonderful person who is loving and empathetic to a fault and lets people walk all over her, and non-confrontational." Only you know the truth based on history, but if your mom has trouble with boundaries and if confrontations drain her, then perhaps making the invitations really low key and also giving her a graceful way to retreat if things become overwhelming (like helping in the kitchen, retiring to the bedroom for a short break, etc.) might help. Sometimes it's easy for people with a generous heart to feel stepped on. She was probably happy to see Martha and her grandchild (and the other child as well) at the wedding and would have handled the situation in a more generous fashion.

@EstherGreenwood, that's a lovely interpretation of the situation, and if that's a likely scenario, I think you've given Bride a nice alternative way to try to navigate this.

I am reading this the same way EstherGreenwood is. Especially this part "She was probably happy to see Martha and her grandchild (and the other child as well) at the wedding and would have handled the situation in a more generous fashion."

I should probably add that one of the reasons I see it that way is because my mother in law is a pushy, demanding nut and my own mother is a introverted pushover. The last time they were both in my house at the same time, my mother finally slipped away to my room and stayed there. She later apologized to me that she just can't handle my mil and I laughed, because my husband freely admits that he has no clue how to deal with his crazy mother. I told her it's fine, you're fine, don't sweat it. Maybe Esther's suggestions would really help in this situation. In fact, after reading this letter, I am always going to mention to my mom that she can "go take a nap" anytime she wants when my in-laws are also around.

Re: Mike H #45
"it's *because* the husband reacted so poorly to the original dig that the neighbor keeps on needling him."
You and Casey are probably right. Just the same, if the wife had any loyalty, she would snap to the neighbour that she stop being such a bitch. That certainly is what I would do in her shoes. Perhaps not the first time (which can be construed as a sincere attempt at humour), but definitely by the time it starts getting old, at which time it is evidently no longer innocent teasing, if it ever was. The fact that she doesn't indicates that she either secrety approves or enjoys it or both. Which is a problem.

As it is, he is likely to react as Patty Bear suggests, and see no reason why he should have HER back. Marriage is supposed to be teamwork, with your spouse your most staunch ally. But when two people leave the other to fend alone, then it is no marriage, this is two people waging a low-grade war.

I think you make some really good points about LW2, Lise. Marriage should definitely be a partnership. My only question is has LW2 told his wife how much the neighbor's comments bother him? or asked her to defend him? If he's just silently stewing over it, she might not realize what his expectations are, or that his feelings are so hurt. Plus, the wife might not even know how to “defend” him. I agree 100% with what you're saying, but what should the wife say to these friends? “Oh, we were just goofing around. Of course he could beat me in a real wrestling match!”

LW1 - Martha sounds like a winner. If I were MIL and someone I didn't even know just dumped a strange toddler on me to babysit at the same time I was busy getting ready for my son's wedding, I would be furious. I would probably be calling the police to report an abandoned child, I would be so mad. Finding out that I was also expected to feed such strange toddler would probably send me over the edge. Some people take that "village" thing way, way too literally.

LW's mother also sounds like a piece of work - no wonder she identifies so much with Martha. I know it's her mother, but I'd just blow her off. If she wants to come to family functions, fine. If not, fine. It sounds like she is very jealous of the inlaws, maybe because they are more affluent, because they are still married, whatever. That's not he LW's proboem to fix.

LW2 -- at the risk of sounding like Princess Bride, I want to point out some of us might be reacting to this letter differently if the genders were reversed. Disregard the wrestling for a moment, because ostensibly that was just one example of what one person has teased this guy about, and allegedly ALL of the wife's GFs are perpetually putting him down for one thing or another (and presumably they aren't all related to the unfortunate wrestling incident). If a woman wrote in and said that all of her husband's male friends were perpetually putting her down and that her husband refused to stick up for her, we'd be telling her that her husband is a jerk (and so are his friends), and he should be sticking up for her. Now, some folks have basically said that, but almost everyone has also said something about this guy needing to grow a spine or grow a pair, etc.

For the record, given the example he gave, I'm inclined to think that this guy's problem is a combo of taking himself way too seriously, being unable to take a joke and being unable to stand up for himself. In the particular example he gave, turning to his wife to stick up for him really does only end up making him look even more weak and plays into the neighbor's teasing, potentially making it all the worse. That being the case, I would completely agree with his needing to learn how to take a joke and how to laugh at himself (which is one of the best ways to pre-empt this kind of needling -- if he laughs it off, the neighbor doesn't get what she wants, so she stops).

I think part of the problem here is that his one example is one that already has sexist overtones to it (far less likely that a woman would be teased for losing a wrestling match to her husband) and it likely isn't representative of all the other times his wife's friends have put him down. So the one example he gave is a particularly bad example to offer up, and potentially skews our reactions. So, the question is: Are they really putting him down, or are they just ribbing him, and because he is so thin-skinned, they keep getting a reaction out of him, so they just keep doing it? There's a fine line between "teasing" and a "put down." Sometimes, there a fine line between "kidding" and "attacking." My guess is that the LW is one of those who jumps right to "put down" when something really was just a harmless joke (or INTENDED to be a harmless joke), and feels "attacked" when someone really is just "kidding."

A couple of cautionary notes on the various "zingers" and comebacks and fighting fire with fire...

1) Most of the zingers that have been offered up are specific to the neighbor seeing the wrestling match, but apparently he has MULTIPLE females who dishing up a variety of "teasing" (or bullying, if the LW is to be believed). Coming up with a zinger to handle that ONE joke is not going to help him with all of the other times this kind of thing happens to him. If he wasn't able to come up with something like this on the fly for the wrestling extravaganza, what are the odds he is miraculously going to come up with other such zingers on the fly that are appropriate to the given situation? The only way he achieves this is if he first learns not to take himself so seriously and how to laugh at himself.

2) Fighting fire with fire is a good approach if he really IS being attacked or put down, etc. If, however, he is thin-skinned and overreacting to harmless teasing that wouldn't bother someone with a healthier self esteem, coming up with the cruelest possible put downs to keep someone from joshing him is simply another overreaction that makes him look like an @$$hole instead of just thin skinned. If someone teases him because the wind just happened to blow his hair a little astray, and he responds with, "well, at least my mother didn't recently die of cancer like yours did" would be just a tad over the top, don't you think? I know, we'd like to think this doesn't need to be explained, but honestly, with this LW, I wouldn't be so sure.

Re: Casey
If she needs to be asked, then there is a problem. He shouldn't have to to beg for her support. And it is not so much a matter of defending him (he is not a little boy), as showing a united front with your life partner.

And she shouldn't need to be told it bothers him either. If, like you and Mike suggest, he reacted so badly to the first jibe, then she knows exactly how he feels about it. And, if she was any good wife to him, it would bother her too. Any way you slice it, this is the type of thing that falls in the category of "If you need to ask at all, then what's the point".

Perhaps the reason the digs don't bother her at all is because that little wrestling match was symbol of a greater tug-of-war in the marriage, which would explain why she so much revels in her big victory.

Re: Casey
As to how to show support, stating they were just fooling around, or snapping at the snoop to stop being such a bitch seem like two good ones to start with - in that order. Not to mention that some of the one-liners that were suggested are perfectly usable by herself!

@Lisa #54
"My guess is that the LW is one of those who jumps right to "put down" when something really was just a harmless joke (or INTENDED to be a harmless joke), and feels "attacked" when someone really is just "kidding."
There are a lot of verbal attacks that are done under the guise of "joking". He does mentiojed "commentS" Plural. When it's the umpteenth time the same old "joke" comes back and the person knows damn well you're not laughing, it's NOT humour, and I don't care what the perpretator calls it in an (often successful) attempt to get away with it.

"We'd be telling her that her husband is a jerk (and so are his friends), and he should be sticking up for her."
Which is exactly what I'm saying, me the sexist, man-hating whatever... ;-D

LW1

Even though you have visited BTL, we need more information. Top of my list: What type of sandwich was it?

(J/K - I hope you use some of the great advice here to get your relationship with your mother back on an even keel)

@Casey
And as for what she can say to show support, stating they were only fooling around, or snapping at the snoop to stop being such a bitch seem like two good ones to start with - in that order. Not to mention that some of the one-liners that were suggested are perfectly usable by her self too.

@Lisa #54
"My guess is that the LW is one of those who jumps right to "put down" when something really was just a harmless joke (or INTENDED to be a harmless joke), and feels "attacked" when someone really is just "kidding.""
There are a lot of verbal attacks that are conducted under the guise of a "joke". He mentions "commentS". Plural. When the same tired old joke keeps coming back again and again, even when it is obvious that the target is not laughing, it is NOT humour, regardless of what the perpetrator uses as an excuse to try to get away with it.

"If a woman wrote in and said that all of her husband's male friends were perpetually putting her down and that her husband refused to stick up for her, we'd be telling her that her husband is a jerk (and so are his friends), and he should be sticking up for her."
Which is exactly what I've been saying. Ah, but according to PB, I'm the queen of all sexist, man-hating whatevers... ;-D

Sorry for the double post. Pitcher's error.

@Lise and Carla: I find gefilte fish tolerable if you eat it with true horseradish (either red or white). But still an "acquired" taste, and It has to be homemade (like my grandmother use to make), because the kind in the jar is, well.....blech. As to bows and kasha, actually known as Kasha Varnishkes, it's quite excellent with lots of caramelized onions and some brown gravy. That said, it's time for lunch!

Again, great points, Lise. I always enjoy hearing your perspective :)

Lisa you wrote: That being the case, I would completely agree with his needing to learn how to take a joke and how to laugh at himself.
I feel like, in general in life, that is almost always great advice :)

@Lise -- I did note the irony that you were among those who actually took the wife to task, rather than the husband! Someone is going to have to make you burn your Man-Haters Club card!

I definitely agree with you that there are many times when a "joke" really IS a put-down, really IS an attack. That's why I said: "There's a fine line between 'teasing' and a 'put down.' Sometimes, there a fine line between 'kidding' and 'attacking.'" And what I'm saying is that without more examples (or at least one that doesn't offer up the double-whammy complication of already having a sexist overtone to it), I, personally, cannot tell for sure whether this guy is just thin-skinned and needs to learn how to laugh things off and not take himself so seriously, or whether his wife's friends really are a bunch of bullies and his wife needs to be sticking up for him.

My guess (and I could definitely be wrong) is that he is thin skinned, the wife knows this to be true and believes that this is something he should work on because life is too short to expend this kind of time and energy being upset over such things as "you were beaten by a GIRL!" So, instead of sticking up for him, which just enables the self-pitying behavior, she tries to tell him that he needs to learn how to deal with this himself. But again, I'm taking a stab in the dark here -- without a few more examples of what is being said, I just don't know.

And you're also right that even someone who CAN take a joke can get tired of hearing the same one over and over again. At which point you either 1) realize that the person in question is a boor and a bore, and you learn to ignore them and maybe even feel sorry for them that they are incapable of finding anything else amusing to say or 2) you say something like, "yeah, that was funny the first 183 times, but don't worry, I can't WAIT to hear the 184th!" (And yes, I know I'm the one who suggested that memorizing zingers is a bad idea!)

LW1: I really have no idea what this letter is about - it's totally confusing. I do know however, that this child is neglected, and I foresee the kid being in some very dangerous situations all alone. If the toddler was left alone in the house, assuming that someone would be there to watch, that is criminal. Martha, or whoever is the child's guardian, should be reported to the authorities. This is a really bad accident waiting to happen to this poor kid. He doesn't even get food to eat? My god, what terrible selfish parents do we have running around?

@Lise, Carla & j: regulars may recall that my father is Jewish and my mother is Catholic. My father likes gefilte fish. I can't even bring myself to try it -- it smells horrible to me, and since taste and smell are so closely aligned, if I find the smell that revolting, the odds that I will like it are pretty slim. My dad used to love keeping a stash of gefilte fish in the fridge because he knew it was the one thing that no one else in the house would voluntarily eat. I do like horseradish, and it's probably about the only thing strong enough to mask that taste!

@Casey -- I think we all of us have times when we may need a little help remembering to laugh at ourselves and/or have specific things that we are not good about laughing off that really should just be laughed off. In a lot of ways, it's similar to learning how to choose your battles. You can't choose your battles wisely if you can't tell the difference between a joke and an attack. I'm also a big fan of the "life's too short..." school of thought.

,Re: Miss Pasko, Good Answer. Actually, I was thinking that since it was the 3 year old that was the main bone of contention here, perhaps Mom heard what she thought was disparaging remarks about him, ie. Eating her food seems a bit petty since it was just a sandwich and he is only 3 years old. Maybe Mom was suppose to be watching him and took this whole "fight' as a back handed slap at her. The reason I wondered if the boy were her grandchild or from another relationship is - I took the mil rantings to be directed at Martha and the little boy. It made more sense if the boy was her grandson and not just her ex-dil's son by another man. I still love my ex-dil and would be quick to defend her. Even though Bride invited Martha to the wedding it could have been at her mothers request. I was just thinking that things were said that are very difficult to take back ans Mom is not about to forgive for what was said about the child being, 'in the way or causing problems' (my words). I found both letters to be confusing and thought since Bride did come BTL to comment it couldn't hurt to find out a bit more before I jumped on the bandwagon.

@Lise, I have to admit that I don't know where to fall re: blaming the wife for not supporting the husband, because I just do get the sense that this guy is thin-skinned and that this probably isn't the first time he's been overly sensitive. His wife might be really loving and supportive but tired of him "crying wolf" for every little perceived slight.

I dunno, because you do make a good case against her as well -- and I completely agree that partners should have each others' backs, as a general rule. But, by the same token, if he's *constantly* a whiny baby, she might not be doing him any favors by continually "riding to his rescue", either.

Re: j
Kasha Varnishkes, rings a bell, that would be the Polish or Russian name, wouldn't it? I think there is version of bows & kasha in every country of the world!

And that's another thing: while there are traditional dishes like gefilte fish that are found everywhere, Jewish cooking will take many different flavours depending on where the Jewish community is located.

@Lisa #65
"I do like horseradish, and it's probably about the only thing strong enough to mask that taste!"
That, and a generous swig of wine to wash it down - not the sirupy kind. Yuck. ;-D

I am Jewish too, and love gefilte fish! I've only had the kind from the jar- to make it from scratch is hard and time consuming (per my mom). It is challenging to keep Kosher the further south you are.

Re: Mike H
Oh, I wouldn't recommend riding to his rescue - he's supposed to be a big boy, and for her to do true rescue work on his behalf would make it look like it's no wonder she beat him to wrestling!

However, for the sake of her marriage, and on behalf of the many qualities one expects she married him for, she should show at least SOME support instead of letting the nosy unfunny bully run roughshod over him. There is this French saying "Qui ne dit mot consent, S/he who stays silent condones". It's a question of presenting a united front more than anything else in the final analysis. Apart from that, it's perfectly true that she's not his mommy and he's supposed to be big enough to fight (at least the main part of) his own battles.

@Mike H (68) -- realize you were responding to Lise, not Lisa -- just chiming in to say you put what I've been trying to say in a better, shorter way! Without more context, impossible to know for sure if he's just a whiny, thin-skinned man or if the wife is an unsupportive shrew. Like you, I am betting he's a whiny, thin-skinned man, in part because he apparently has this problem with a NUMBER of the wife's friends, as opposed to just this one neighbor, or even just one specific topic (hey, we all have SOMETHING we're a bit prickly about, right?). It is, of course, possible that this is a case of some poor slob who has manage to surround himself with female bullies (which might actually point to a whole DIFFERENT problem), and Lise does make a good case for the need for the wife to step up. But I'm still leaning toward whiny, thin-skinned baby.

Re: Lisa

Yeah, it would be over the top, but that was kind of what I was going for. The idea isn't to fly off the handle every time someone looks at you funny, but thin skinned or not, it's time to stop harping on the same old thing since it's obviously bothering him. Some people are thin skinned, and they are allowed to be, and should be able to maintain some sensitivity without people constantly bugging them about something.

So yeah, play dirty if that's what you need to do to keep them quiet. If LW2 is capable of developing a thicker skin and not caring, then that's fine too. But if not, all of the "oh, it was just foreplay" jokes are cute, but aren't going to help in the long run. Frankly, he needs a way to get these people to STOP bugging him, not a way to DEAL with these people bugging him

LW1: Aren't you too old to be kissing your mom's butt? Tell her to grow up and shut up then you do the same.

LW2: Really? Yikes. Man up. It's bad enough she can take you physically but now she has to protect you verbally? Wow.

And BTW, just because LW2 knows how to wrestle her husband to the ground doesn't mean he's a wimp. I hear it's like martial arts, and there are tricks of the trade...

You should have seen the Tai Chi Master I used to study with once upon a long time ago - 5'1", 100 pounds, a skinny little runt, elderly man all wrinkled... You would have thought he was the most harmless little bugger in all of Chinatown. Ho ho ho. Ain't nobody I would rather had had by my side in a street fight. He was like a Kung Fu video on fast forward, nobody could touch him!

Ok original letter to the Annies wasn't as complicated as they made out in their post.
1.) MIL and FIL rented a house for the immediate family, parents, brothers, sister and their significant other.
2.) I did invite Martha 6 months before the wedding and she didn't say she was coming until a week before which stressed me out we had things planned down to the number that rsvp'd.
3.) Martha is my brothers ex gf and mother of his daughter (my neice) her son is from a later short lived relationship.
4.) My mom isn't a traveler. She doesn't socialize well with people she isn't super familiar with, my husbands family is the exact opposite.
5.) My father is older and too unhealthy to travel, he is 79 my mother is 59.
6.) My MIL wasn't upset about the sandwich, she was upset about the intrusion and kept telling me to not stress about it until wedding day when she showed up unannounced at the house around 11 after they had to check out of their hotel room.
7.) The friend she brought was her stepsons girlfriend. (Martha is married now and her stepson is 17)
Not sure if I covered all questions since it doesn't show me the comments when Im replying. So I apologize.

Re: Bride
Well, the timeine now is certainly clear, as well as family relationships.

But as far as I'm concerned, the advice remains the same: it belongs to your mother's to climb down from that high mountain of hers. Talk to her calmly, tell her you're sorry if she chooses not to come when your in-laws are present, but that she cannot reasonably demand that you choose between her and your husband's family. The rest is up to her. And bear in mind what I said about the complete physical. Good luck!

P.S. You're welcome to post your perspective on letters 2 & 3... New posters are always welcome!

Re: Bride (#76)

I also appreciate the timeline and clearing up things, as Lise said. In addition to what she said, I'd also recommend that if -- and only if -- there are any issues between family and/or ex-family members remaining, it may be best to get a counselor to hear all grievances and talk things out, as I had recommended before.

That said, why was Martha allowed to come even after she failed to RSVP? To me, the more I think about it, this may be the root of all (or at least a large part of) the stress -- that things had to be hastily rearranged to accommodate her and her friends when really they just should have been shown the door (by maybe a groomsman or usher, which is easier to say in hindsight, I guess).