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Is 60 Old?

Comment

Dear Annie: I'm confused about what to do with a situation in my family. At the age of 21, I am the oldest of four children. My parents have been divorced for seven years and still remain good friends. Dad remarried six years ago and is miserable. I know because he told me.

I have evidence that makes me believe my father is having an affair with my best friend's mother. (She is divorced.) I am convinced he is in love with her. I am not condoning his affair, but I want him to be happy. I want him to get out of his current marriage with some integrity left.

The only person this is going to hurt is my stepmom. I don't wish her ill, but I have seen how unhappy my father is and have been hoping for a long time that he could see his way out of his misery. Should I encourage him to fight for his happiness? — Distraught Son

Dear Son: We know you love your father and want him to be happy, but you truly need to stay out of this. Too often, well-meaning family and friends get blamed for whatever happens. You can tell Dad that he deserves to be content and you want that for him. You can also tell him to seek counseling if he's having trouble. But that's it. He needs to handle his marriage in his own way.

Dear Annie: Why is it that when you hit the magic age of 60, people automatically think of you as being old? I am 62 years old. I do not act old, and I do not dress old. But ever since I turned 60, people have been treating me like I should be sitting in a rocking chair waiting to die.

I had a 22-year job with a large company that decided those of us with years of experience should no longer be working for them. And now it's impossible to find another position.

Companies should not be afraid to hire older people. We are good, reliable and responsible workers. We don't take time off for maternity leave and are willing to work long and late hours.

I have been looking for full-time employment for more than a year. I am not ready to retire. I know how important it is to keep active at any age, so I've taken a series of part-time jobs. Please tell businesses not to be afraid to hire an older adult. We are willing to give our all for the betterment of YOUR company. — Young at Heart

Dear Young at Heart: In most instances, companies drop older workers for economic reasons. However, they lose a great deal when it comes to experience and continuity, which can end up costing more in the long run. Seniors can find information on job searches and training at foundation.aarp.org and through experienceworks.org (1-866-976-5939).

Dear Annie: I read the letter from "Michigan," who was worried about her future connection to her sons after they marry. Please allow me to give her the advice my father gave to me.

Before I married, my father sat me down at the kitchen table and said, "You'll have a couple of houses, several cars, maybe some kids and even the possibility of another wife, but let me tell you something, boy. You're only going to have one mother. Treat her well while she's here."

Two years ago, I buried both parents and have no regrets because I was there for them. — Still Miss Them

Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please e-mail your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 5777 W. Century Blvd., Ste. 700, Los Angeles, CA 90045. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.

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Comments

87 Comments | Post Comment
LW1: unless your father mentions to you again how miserable he is, STFU. No one truly knows what goes on in marriages (kids might come the closest) - even married people who have a sense of how relationships evolve over time and how people work together. If your father does say something, DO NOT bring up your suspicions. Just say that you want to see him happy, ask if he sees himself married to her in 10 years or 20 years, and ask if he's actually trying to make it work and get through a bad time, rather than delaying the inevitable second divorce.

Oh, yes, the second divorce. Do not ask Roxe how she knows these things, but those who are already divorced often hang onto their second marriages, no matter how miserable, because one divorce is understandable but two makes them feel like degenerate screw-ups. Of course, there are degenerate screw-ups who can't maintain a marriage, and the serial divorcing is a sign of them, not bad choices in partners.

LW2: oh get off your high horse already. I was all set to be sympathetic to you, to remind young'uns (myself included) that we will all either age or die young, so treat the elderly as we want the next generation to treat us, and then I saw this:

"I have been looking for full-time employment for more than a year. I am not ready to retire. I know how important it is to keep active at any age, so I've taken a series of part-time jobs. Please tell businesses not to be afraid to hire an older adult. We are willing to give our all for the betterment of YOUR company. "

Maybe, sweetheart, you can't find a job because you are so freakin out of touch with economic reality that no employer wants to hire you. Okay, that was mean, but let me explain a bit more: a LOT of people - many of them right out of college and as young and fresh as rainbows - job-hunt for more than a year in this economy. The "real" unemployment rate is something like 20%, once you factor in part-time workers and those who have given up on looking for jobs. Yep, one in five. Highest rate? Among those in their twenties - those rompers who are as far away from a rocking chair as Charlie Sheen is from being a healthy role model.

The fact that you can even *get* a series of part-time jobs makes you the envy of many (9.1% of the population, last I checked). Employers are afraid to hire people, period, so keep at the temping because that's where jobs are at.

If it makes you feel better, remove references to your age on your resume. Have a friend help you to update your wardrobe. If you do not do so already, get a Facebook account or a Twitter account and put those on your resume. Okay, I know that the last one is either a great idea or a terrible idea, but a link to this lady's twitter account, perhaps tweeting about trends her her desired field, could go up right near her email address. It would dispel the "old dogs, new tricks" concern that employers have - that older people are reluctant to update their skill sets for the new demands of her job, or are reluctant to adjust to the way one particular employer wants things done. I'm just thinking that some employer might think, "If she can use Twitter to talk about xyz, I can teach her to do this job".
Comment: #1
Posted by: Roxeanne de Luca
Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:20 PM
LW1-
I'M afraid the Annies are quite right. Stay out of this, lesty you be possibly the messenger that gets shot down.

LW2-
You're only getting this at 60? Lucky you, I've been getting a version of this getting worse every year, ever since I turned 40!

Yes, I know, older people have better work ethics, they don't ghet pregnant nor have to take time off for a kid with the flu and tehy have tons of experience. But I have been subjected to ageism so many times that I come to believe that people and especially women, are basically viewed sexually before anything else - once the baby machine is shut down, it's like you have nothing left. I know, I know, it doesn't make a licj of sense... But it wouold appear that common sense isn't so common.

Is 60 "old"? Gee, I sure hope not - I'm turning 60 next winter!

LW3-
I realise this is a new perspective for once, but oye vey, are we going to have yet ANOTHER letter on this one after that? I think this is the fourth one, and meanwhile the original LW is one of us BLT, and outed herself to let us know there wasn't a problem after all. SOME LWs do read the commentary, but evidently the Annies don't bother.

Comment: #2
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:27 PM
Re: Roxeanne de Luca

Oh, Roxe, if I may...

I don't know how old you are, but until you reach that certain age, you will have no idea how women that age are really treated. I know - I'm 59.

I don't put my age on my resume. They can still figure it out from the years of experience and the years I got my diplomas. Even if you manage to edit out all these dates from your CV, if they really want to know, they'll ask questions and you cannot evade them. I know - I'm 59.

She shouldn't give up and your suggestions are good - but believe you me, it's an uphill battle. I know - I'm 59, AND looking for a job also.

Comment: #3
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:43 PM
Gee Lise, That's alot of typos for you. Are you and your new boyfriend hitting the catnip? ;-)
Comment: #4
Posted by: Claudia
Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:57 PM
(Lise, I was talking about post#2)
Comment: #5
Posted by: Claudia
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:00 PM
Maybe just once Lise could comment on a letter without explaining how she has been victimized. I guess its easier for her to explain away why she cant get a job by blaming her age and sex rather than her unpleasant, know-it-all, chip on the shoulder attitude. There is no doubt she is intelligent, but obviously employers see her in the light I read her as being, unlike how a lot of the posters here see her.

I was laid off from my job because I was being paid the most in my department. It took me 8 months, but I was able to find a new one. I was hired by a small company that had a staff of only 12, mostly male, the oldest being my boss, who was 45. I assumed wrongly that this was a young boys club I was going to work for. Over the last two years, the boys club fired my boss and replaced him by promoting a woman, hired 4 more people, all women, the last being 64 years old. I know its just one example, but I know plenty of older women that have no problem gaining and retaining employment.
Comment: #6
Posted by: PerpetualVictimLise
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:00 PM
PerpetualDickhead, How nice for you but generally most older folks are not as lucky as you were. Please lay off the insults. We have had just about enough of that crap around here.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Claudia
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:08 PM
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Comment: #8
Posted by: PerpetualVictimLise
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:12 PM
...and, they're off!
Comment: #9
Posted by: Jpp
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:16 PM
Re: PerpetualVictimLise

So true! I'm the same way, when I go for job interviews I always engage potential employers in debate about family issues and thank-you notes. I go on about proper eating habits and kvetch about politics using the same casual tone I use on online web forums. It's not wonder I haven't been hired, eh?

Gosh, if only there were SOME way that one could be casual, chatty and personable in one context, and professional and concise in another. Oh well, must be impossible.

LW1 - Your dad is a grownup and he can make his own decisions. If he wants out of his second failed(failing) marriage, he is capable of doing that on his own, just as he is capable of carrying on an affair with a (married?) woman, his daughter's best friend's mother, no less. Stay out of it. Your dad's love/sex life isn't your concern. Be supportive as a daughter but it should no go further than that.

LW2 - I hear ya, but your tone was pretty off-putting. Especially this:

"We are good, reliable and responsible workers. We don't take time off for maternity leave and are willing to work long and late hours."

Yes, heaven forbid a woman take a year off for baby-making. A sixty-year-old might not take maternity leave, but they aren't all willing to work long and late hours. The company I work for hired a woman in her 60s a few years ago and at five thirty pm (the work day ends at 5pm usually), if there was extra work to be done, she'd claim to be just exhausted and go home, leaving the rest of us to finish her work. She was difficult to train and had a hard time grasping new technology and was confrontational with younger people telling her what to do. I'm not saying she's the norm. What I'm saying is that everyone should be based on MERIT and that being in a certain age bracket doesn't assure proper work ethic or responsibility, not by a long shot.

Keep looking for a job, volunteer and work part time as you have been doing, and be thankful you HAVE a job at all, unlike the, what, 20% of Americans that don't.
Comment: #10
Posted by: Zoe
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:20 PM
How is it lucky? That's another victim-like thought pattern. I am not lucky. I'm smart, efficient, and know how to sell myself. Still, it took a while to find a job.

Fairly amusing to call someone a dickhead while asking them to not insult poor defenseless Lise and the rest of the old people who and flail against their keyboards to post about their awful fate.
Comment: #11
Posted by: PerpetualVictimLise
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:23 PM
@Jpp #9 LOL!
Comment: #12
Posted by: Claudia
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:29 PM
Lise: [purses lips] I am NOT sure what you think I wrote, but last I checked (i.e. two seconds ago), I said,

"I was all set to be sympathetic to you, to remind young'uns (myself included) that we will all either age or die young, so treat the elderly as we want the next generation to treat us...."

Yes, age discrimination exists, but, pardon me for getting technical, that age discrimination exists does not mean that every non-young person who struggles to find a job is the victim of it. As a 30-something who is suffering through this downturn, watches her friends suffer through it, and watches the half-generation behind her suffer, too, the subtle implication by the LW1, that she would *not* be job-hunting for a year if she were younger, really frosts me. I know far, far too many people, in all age brackets, who are unemployed or absurdly underemployed, to really think that "job hunting for a year, but getting part-time work" is really indicative of anything but this economic collapse.

Not trying to be a total jerk here, but most HR people are right around my age. A lot of people who interview are around my age. A lot of people at temp agencies, which sometimes to temp-to-perm work, are about my age. Most of us are either suffering ourselves or watching our friends get blown out of the water. Therefore, this whole "I'm ONLY job-hunting because I'm old" mentality doesn't go over well with the people who do initial screenings, and, therefore, is probably a really, really bad idea. As I learned the hard way, many moons ago, the perception of interviewers, whether right or wrong, becomes your reality. And berate me all you want for my reaction, but it's going to be the gut-level reaction of about what, 75%, 90% of people doing initial screenings, so... maybe LW1 ought to cool it with the "I would totally have an awesome job if I weren't old!" routine.

Is there age discrimination? Of course. Are there problems with hiring older people that are age-related by not discriminatory, such as them having higher salary expectations that cannot be met, or the unwillingness of a company to hire on a 62-year-old who is going to leave in three years? Yeah. Are there ways around those things? (Sighs) Perhaps, limited, and with the right employer, but it's tough. Does job-hunting for a year mean that you're being discriminated against? Hell's bells, no! That's just your welcome to the second decade of the 2000s.
Comment: #13
Posted by: Roxeanne de Luca
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:38 PM
Roxe - post #13 - You nailed it!
Comment: #14
Posted by: Claudia
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:45 PM
I don't feel comfortable saying this... but:

Comment #4 Claudia - hope you were joking, since you had a typo on your own post in two short sentences (unless you are not aware that A LOT consists of TWO words!!).

Comment #6 PerpetualVictimLise - just because you are witness to a situation where a person is hired at the young age of 64, you must be aware this is not the norm. Not that many people are so lucky! Haven't you heard about all the plastic surgeries being performed as of late (both male and female) in order for them to appear younger? Why else are they doing this?

Not starting an argument so early in today's BTL (ever, really), but please cut your snide remarks. I know that Lise has her own voice, so perhaps I should have just let it be.
Comment: #15
Posted by: Jenna
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:53 PM
Dear son: Mind your own business, your father is old enough to make the change by himself if he indeed wanted to. You are the oldest and were age 14 at your parents divorce. Do not take responsibility for your father's happiness. He would be approximately in the mid to upper 40's and if he gets caught by wife #2, he is a big boy. Let the chips fall where they may. Do not be his confident in this action he is taking. This will only screw you up for life, and as he has shown, two wives later, he is still playing the game.
Learn from experience of WHAT NOT TO DO, so when you begin to develop serious relationships, you have seen the mistakes taken place, and a father who does not give a damn. That being said, he could also blame you for any outcome that happens. Stay clear, play dumb.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LW2: Age 62 is not over the hill unless you choose to be. You have skills and knowledge and experiences that newbies don't have. You most likely have loyalty within your work ethic as well.
Take community education classes and brush up on your skills. Local community college? Go in and talk with the counselors to see what classes might help you with jobs available in your community. Night classes are wonderful. Just doing some night classes will show them you are serious about getting employed and staying at your job, not just use it as a stop gap fill in. Your roots are there. You don't want to have to start drawing SS until after 65, if you can help it, or longer. The longer you wait, the higher the amount is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3rd week of September 2011, my husband will have completed 50 years within the CASE (CNH), Fiat, Chrysler company. And the powers that be called him to ask if he would be willing to stay another 3 years and finish 53 years---their top person of all these companies is 52 years completion. This being said, he is NOT an executive. He has worked within the whole company since beginning in 1961. His wages: $1 per hour back then and you were glad to have it. The original company was the brain storm locally, and eventually through the years became a very productive and well know world wide.
With all the jobs he has held, his current is the quality inspector of the whole CNH plant here. As he has aged, they have offered him changes with his positions. When they went computerized in the early 80's, many of his fellow workers chose NOT to advance in their own personal skills. What we did? Bought a couple computers for home so he could learn (from the kids) so be worthy at work. Fear can be an absolute stopping point of advancement. He learned as the 2 year old did at the same time. My then 2 year old rebuilds computers as a hobby, we began with Commodore and learned to write programs as well.
Our small community of 3500 people draws many to the jobs here. There are over 450 employed at CNH here, running around the clock shifts. And they are advancing with new products, putting out the call for 100 more people. Some disappointment happening is the newbies hired have issues in not staying long—work ethic short on patience, want advancement faster than they are willing to work, and what hurts them the worst is failing drug screenings or INS or ICE comes to call. Considering the economy and all those unemployed, you'd think a full time hours +, full benefits at 90 days (insurance, etc). Some comments made by those quitting was they need more personal time. What is more personal than NOT HAVING A JOB? This company was made on the sweaty backs of those in the community to make sure it stayed viable all through the crisis of time since later 1950's. Relished are the ‘old timers' who quit farming, move into town, have the skills and knowledge of what is needed and more important, patience. (Ever wait for the field to dry so you could plant the corn and then wait for that to grow so you can do harvest?) The 50-65 year olds are gold starred into jobs quickly. They are not moving out of the community, this is their roots. And there is room for newbies. (There are some employees who work somewhere else M-F and then come here for Fri-Sunday shift—36 hours but get paid for 40. This is so they can support their families.) My husband puts in 10.5 hr days M-F and then 6 on Saturday when they need his office support. Through the years, 24 hour call (without cell phones) was necessary when the farmers are in the fields (now world wide—more tech services take place) but someone has to respond NOW, not wait till 8 am or Monday morning. No matter where in the world it is, our lives depend on what happens to the farmer and the crops. If food went away, so would we.
This was a guy with a high school education. Grew up on the farm, knew how to weld, knew his tools of his trade. He has never been laid off, has accumulated approximately 3 years of time in sick leave (will never get that back) as well as 6 weeks of vacation each year. And can't be away more than a few days at a time or the office calls for answers.
Not complaining—this is how most of us in the upper Midwest grew up. Being accountable and expecting a paycheck for an honest weeks work. Loyalty, friendships, hard work.
In smaller communities, you get to know the people and network for many things yet the wide world is out there---China representation was just here this week to discuss future purchases. And it used to be the big deal to get the products on the ships to other European countries (70's). Now the foreign languages in the local schools include Spanish, German and Chinese.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:55 PM
Re: PerpetualVictimLise

First, a big clap-clap-clap-clap to Zoe for her snark towards you about the distinction between what ones says in one area, to one audience, and what one says to a different audience.

Now, I *disagree* with Lise over a few things, and this is a hot-button issue for a lot of people (particularly those on the extreme ends, like Lise, nearing 60, and me, who did the career-change routine and got her JD just as the economy collapsed and the legal market underwent one of the biggest restructurings in decades). However, there's no need to go after her like you did. You owe her an apology.

Furthermore, it always entertains me (from the outside) when people snark on others for being "victims" but then go after them with both barrels. Apparently, you have no sense of irony.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Roxeanne de Luca
Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:57 PM
LW2: At 60, you don't think of yourself as old, but everyone under the age of 60 thinks you are. You sound like a 60-year-old. Nobody is going to mistake you for 25 because of the way you act and dress. You might as well own it.

My last employer laid off everybody who was 40 and up, more or less. At 60, assuming you need the money, be glad you're still employable at all, even part-time. By the way, you don't have a pro-corporation voting record, do you?
Comment: #18
Posted by: LouisaFinnell
Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:04 PM
Jenna, Yes, I was just teasing Lise. That's why I did the winky face ;-) Please feel free to correct my spelling. I tend to be a creative speller. Thanks a lot :-D
Comment: #19
Posted by: Claudia
Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:16 PM
Claudia - CRAP! Sorry... sooo sorry! I just, nope no excuses - didn't see the winky face.
Comment: #20
Posted by: Jenna
Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:21 PM
Jenna, No problem!
Comment: #21
Posted by: Claudia
Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:29 PM
Be Kind ~ for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
Comment: #22
Posted by: SL
Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:55 PM
SL - my mantra is "fighting the hard battle will only make you STRONGER". I learned this about 15 years ago when I was diagnosed with MS. Not saying this to elicit sympathy, just to agree that you don't always know what kind of hardship ANYONE is going through, and excellent advice by you "Everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".

My, I have certainly gone off track from the letters of the day - going to have to go back and re-read them.
Comment: #23
Posted by: Jenna
Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:45 AM
Re: Joyce/MN, comment #16

That was a nice story regarding your husband's work history. I guess he's not all bad, is he? You can still show him my reply from yesterday's column, though. If the man is that capable at his job, he shouldn't forget his anniversary. Shame on him.

Comment: #24
Posted by: Mike
Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:31 AM
LW2: I'm sorry, LW, but reading your letter made my head spin.


First of all, age IS totally relative. My mother, who had worked for a huge corporation for many years, retired the first day that she could (her 60th birthday) and moved away from the town she had lived in for 30 years to start a new life and business 600 miles away. She is now in her 80s and she is still going strong working in her own business. My father worked until a week before he died at his own business. I'm not near that age yet, I'm not even close to 60, but when I didn't find a job for almost two years (!!!) I started MY own business. You're not getting a job? Create one! Better yet, create one that will create others!


It's all in your attitude. I agree that there is some discimination out there against older workers. There is also bias against women (yes, even now), overweight people (there's one noone talks about much), gay people (like you can tell right off the bat!), and let's not forget the old standby biases against race, handicaps, religion. I'm assuming this is the first time in your life where you are feeling discriminated against. Well, honey, join the rest of us who have been dealing with at least ONE "strike" against us all of our lives. What you need to do is move ON. If your job isn't hiring, change your job! The job market is continually changing (Joyce's post was EXCELLENT about that) and in order to keep being employed you will need to continually change as well.


Toss the attitude, get busy, get off the pity pot and move on. Look at it this way: 150 years ago you would have been LUCKY to make it to 60. Now it's almost middle age (look at some of the actresses still going strong in their 60s, Susan Sarandon, Meryl Streep, et al). Embrace the positive and people will look to you as a role model like I do with my parents. Good luck.
Comment: #25
Posted by: nanchan
Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:47 AM
claudia, sl and jenna, posts 19-23...my compliments to each of you for defusing what could have ended up as a flame war.
i don't remember who brought up typos, but there are an awful lot of reasons why lise could have made more than usual today. perhaps she was posting in the dark? i know i'm usually too cheap to turn on the lights in the morning, so i can't see the keyboard. she could have had a cat or dog trying to sit on her lap. her thoughts may have been comng faster than her fingers could keep up. if i'm not mistaken, english is her second language. i'd love to be even half as fluent in french or spanish as lise is in english.
for the record, i don't know if it's pertinent to the conversation, but i out-age lise by two years.
Comment: #26
Posted by: alien07110
Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:51 AM
Re: Roxeanne de luca
I apologize for entering the fray towards the end of it, but I believe I read a few days ago that lise was an unemployed jewelry maker, now she is a J.D. ? Have I misunderstood ? Or are the stories changing half way across the stream?
For LW 1, he/ she should stay out of his business. People are correct when they say that the bearer of bad news always get fried, he is the"grownup", let him fix his life.
LW 2 should realize that age is a factor and probably always will be in the hiring process. It's also true that many people do not want to "modernize" as things in the workplace change. I would hope that people would interview each potential employee on an individual basis but that does not always happen. Youth is worshipped In our society, and when people interview for a job hopefully they can show that they have kept up with the newest technology, and then hope for the best. Good luck to all the unemployed, it is not a pleasant state to be in right now..
Comment: #27
Posted by: Sarah
Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:58 AM
LW1--Please stay out of your father's marital woes. I agree with other posters that nobody except the husband and wife really knows what goes on in their marriage. To tell your dad that you basically approve of his hooking up with your best friend's mother would be creepy and create the mother of awkward moments. Your father may be unhappy in his current situation but it's up to him and him alone to fix it. Silence is golden.

LW2-- What Roxeanne de Luca said (great, great advice!!!) except might I suggest LinkedIn instead of FaceBook or Twitter for the resume. LinkedIn is a social networking site for professionals and I can attest it's full of recruiters who would be delighted to help take advantage of your years of experience to land a lucrative position. Good luck!
Comment: #28
Posted by: Chris
Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:50 AM
LW2 - It isn't just in the workplace you're treated as if you were not all there. Since my hair turned gray the younger generation has begun treating me as if gray hair means I no longer have all my marbles. I do not ACT old and I wear nice, contemporary clothing, and have lots of interests. I live in the south, and am used to being called "Honey", which people of all ages are called, and which is fine. However, now I am called "Sweetie" in the most patronizing manner imaginable, as if I were four years old, in stores, medical facilities, etc. One experience says it all about how seniors are viewed in our culture: several years ago, I asked for a senior discount at a movie theater. A ticket was issued, and as I entered the theater I glanced down at it. It said "Admit One Child". 'Nuff said.
LW3 - I'm getting tired of this topic, too. Although I do think the dad in this story sounds like a gem!
Comment: #29
Posted by: Linda
Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:51 AM
Re: Claudia

No, it was me hitting the beer! LOL PLus, it was very late and I was tired.

Comment: #30
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:09 AM
LW2-I may get blasted for this but I'm inclined to ask, “What are *you* complaining about?” I am nearly 36, I just got a Masters degree last year, I cannot find a job in my field in my area, I'm unable to relocate at this time, I have two young children and student loans hanging over my head.

OK, I know ageism exists, I have no doubt of that but seriously, your comments about no need for maternity leave…really? You make it sound like people in my position have no need of a job or are less deserving of having one. Where do you get off?

All due apologies to my fellow experienced posters here but this LW is one of those that I wish would retire to let the rest of us have a chance at a job. If nothing else, it's because her attitude stinks (maybe that's why you lost your job?).

BTW-I may be only 36, a mere pup to you, Miss “Young at Heart,” but in my own experience, experience does not always equal wisdom, vision, and a willingness to take the sort of risks needed to make a company or organization successful. You are competing in a market against people who know and are very familiar with the current technology skills required in today's professional environment. What is your attitude towards picking up these new skills? Do you willingly jump in and do your best to learn or do you complain loudly and often at the smallest change?

Just a side note, I've resorted to volunteering at my local library in order to gain more experience and to hopefully get noticed for a job at said library which is about to open up. I allowed myself a limit on the pity party. Once done, it was time to decide my next course of action. Why don't you do the same?
Comment: #31
Posted by: LibraryKat
Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:48 AM
@LibraryKat

Okay, I'm probably definitely going to get blasted for this, but may I ask you why you would pursue an education and graduate degree in the somewhat obscure field of Library Science in this day and age of computers, the Internet, and smart phones / tablet PCs which allow one to instantly obtain practically any information in the blink of an eye? (I'm stating the perception here, not the facts. Stay tuned to the end for a few reasons why Librarians are still extremely important, even today!) Even now as I type this, books themselves are beginning to vanish in favor of e-readers. I'm the same age as you and even though I am definitely a computer geek, I saw this era coming even back in high school when Apple IIs and Commodore Amigas ruled the computer labs. To me, it would have seemed ill-advised to pursue a degree in anything other than a technical field (which I why I pursued biochemistry academically and computer science on the side.) It's kind of hard to feel sorry for people with obscure degrees or skill sets such as parapsychology, queer musicology, surfing studies, or golf management (all real degree programs by the way) who can't find jobs. Please don't take me the wrong way. I know what it's like to be passionate about something and want to do that thing for the rest of your life, however, practicality and common sense needs to prevail and everyone whose in school today should keep an ear to the tracks to determine the best possible career choice.

Okay folks, here's why Librarians are still extremely relevant today! :-)

1. Not everything is available on the Internet
2. Digital libraries are not the Internet
3. The Internet isn't free
4. The Internet complements libraries, but it doesn't replace them
5. School Libraries and Librarians Improve Student Test Scores
6. Libraries aren't just books
7. Library attendance isn't falling – it's just more virtual now
8. Like businesses, digital libraries still need human staffing
9. Google Book Search doesn't work
10. Physical libraries can adapt to cultural change
11. The internet isn't DIY
12. Wisdom of crowds is untrustworthy, because of the tipping point
Comment: #32
Posted by: Chris
Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:13 AM
@6
Please find another forum to spew your nonsense. No one here is interested in you or your snark. If you cannot use your manners and critique with courtesy, we are not interested in reading what you have to say. As to your "handle" What is that about? Got a crush on Lise do you? You owe Lise an apology as well as to the rest of the posters on this forum. We are here to read the article and offer different perspectives. NOT flame each other. If you have an issue with Lise or anyone else here, take it private cause the rest of us are tired of it.
Thanks and have a peachy kind of day!
Comment: #33
Posted by: Razzle
Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:17 AM
@27~ Better check your reading comprehension. Roxe is the one who got her JD, not Lise.
Comment: #34
Posted by: Razzle
Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:27 AM
Re: Roxeanne de Luca
"the subtle implication by the LW1, that she would *not* be job-hunting for a year if she were younger, really frosts me"

I didn't read it that way and, If you took what I said to mean that also, I am really sorry because this is not what I meant at all. As a matter of fact, there are all kinds of discriminations going on - I shudder to think of what an obese, hijabed, Black, 60 year-old woman with a Muslim name will be going through. Even young people will be subjected to prejudice and all kinds of stereotyping. People who want to be prejudiced can always find something to latch on to.

The real point I was making in my post to you is that, we shouldn't be poo-pooing complaints about discrimination when we're not in a position to suffer that specific discrimination ourselves. What I'm really trying to say is that it always looks like much less than it really is when we're not the ones suffering it, and that goes for ANY kind of discrimination.

The best job-hunters can do is :
a) Consult with some job-assist program to update the presentation of your CV and brush-up on interview techniques
b) Make sure your clothing is appropriate, both in terms of style and condition
c) Present well in terms of cleanliness and grooming
d) Be professional on the phone and during the interview
e) highlight your competences and what you can do for the company
f) have realistic expectations in terms of salary
g) Make sure you apply for a position you are certain you can fill

Even if you do all that (like I'm doing), it may take a while before you find something and, in this economy, there isn't even any guarantee that you will.

People who go by stereotype and use discrimination to decide on their selection will do it no matter what you do. There is nothing anyone can do about that. One can only hope that at one point, the competence will be looked at rather than the age, the race, the weight, the ethnic group, the religion or whatever other factor that some employer might not like.

Comment: #35
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:38 AM
@ Chris

"Okay, I'm probably definitely going to get blasted for this, but may I ask you why you would pursue an education and graduate degree in the somewhat obscure field of Library Science in this day and age of computers, the Internet, and smart phones / tablet PCs which allow one to instantly obtain practically any information in the blink of an eye? (I'm stating the perception here, not the facts. Stay tuned to the end for a few reasons why Librarians are still extremely important, even today!) Even now as I type this, books themselves are beginning to vanish in favor of e-readers. I'm the same age as you and even though I am definitely a computer geek, I saw this era coming even back in high school when Apple IIs and Commodore Amigas ruled the computer labs. To me, it would have seemed ill-advised to pursue a degree in anything other than a technical field (which I why I pursued biochemistry academically and computer science on the side.) It's kind of hard to feel sorry for people with obscure degrees or skill sets such as parapsychology, queer musicology, surfing studies, or golf management (all real degree programs by the way) who can't find jobs. Please don't take me the wrong way. I know what it's like to be passionate about something and want to do that thing for the rest of your life, however, practicality and common sense needs to prevail and everyone whose in school today should keep an ear to the tracks to determine the best possible career choice."

Who do you think is qualified to teach them how to properly use them as learning tools? I'm one of the few around here (by that I mean the area where I live) who understands how they can be used to find the best, most relevant, and quality information. I know of ways to use many web-based applications (on the computer or smartphone) for personal, educational and business purposes.

Besides, I'd be willing to bet there is a correlation between a successful public library and a high rate of academic and professional success in a given area as well (I heard of a public library that closed in a town up north and the town's drop-out rate has increased since then).

Also, we librarians are becoming increasingly over-worked; public library usage is up over 30% but budget cuts are higher. People are being laid off left and right, many are heading to the library for job-seeking and to take advantage of free computer skills classes.

Information is very technology-driven, I realize this, but business and information systems degrees only serve one segment of society. Librarians, or "information specialists," serve much more.

Go check out careers on the American Library Association's Web site to see more about what a person with a Library and Information Science degree can do.
Comment: #36
Posted by: LibraryKat
Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:26 AM
This is WAY off topic I know; has nothing to do with the above, forgive me, but I am currently on the phone with a friend who has talked of NOTHING the past few weeks but her medical problems. Believe me, even if you care about the friend, there is NOTHING more boring. Just thought I'd bring that up.
Comment: #37
Posted by: Diane Smith
Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:30 AM
@Roxe
Post #17
Thanks for the support, I appreciate that. I actually don't think we really disagree on this, we just both misunderstood what the other meant.

In my specific case, I actually don't think age is my worst handicap, compared to the fact that I've been self-employed for several years now, and there are a lot of prejudices about that in Quebec (I don't know about the US). For many here, it's like it doesn't count as real work, it's very strange. I know someone who sells at Tam Tam also, who happens to be a math teacher. He has no health, so he only does substitute, which allows him to say no when he's going through a bad spell. He says he noticed a change of attitude towards him at the school where he was doing a three-week replacement after someone saw him sell at Tam Tam. It was like all of a sudden he wasn't being taken seriously anymore, you would have thought they had caught him begging on the street.

I'm spunky, competent, articulate and a go-getter, I don't look old, I don't feel old, I don't "dress" or "act" old, my voice is young enough, I'm extremely healthy and physically strong, I certainly don't look my age, whatever I'm supposed to look like at my ripe old age... But if people see me differently because I'm no longer 20, there is nothing I can do about that. Even if I got a face-lift, I would still be pushing 60.

P.S.: What's JD?

@Jenna
You have MS? How do you handle it? I used to work street sales and Tam Tam with someone who had MS. She took medical marijuana and said that it's what kept her out of the wheelchair.

@Linda
Post #29
That's why I started using a little product coming out of a tube when I started greying about a year ago... I see no reason why I should make it even harder than it has to be. About the change of attitude, I have a rather funny anecdote to report...

During the year I turned 40, I was still a voice student at UQAM. On the day I was turning 40, I was lined up along with others at my accompanying pianist's door, waiting for her to finish rehearsal before I could book book my own appointment. The procedure was, we would all line up at her door at the turn of the hour, wait for her to finish up with the one she was working with, then she would open up her door and start booking appointments with the people waiting for her in the order they were lined up in. Right behind me was a short, skinny guy (mid-thirties) with a deep bass voice who had several times exressed interest. As in, Hel-LO (deep bass, arm around the shoulder, big smile), every time he saw me somewhere.

Denyse (the pianist) was someone who was good at remembering birthdays (not like me!). The minute she opened the door and saw me there first in line, she gave me a big hug and a kiss on each cheek, wishing me a happy birthday in her female tenor voice.

"Oh, so it's your birthday", chimed in Mr Deep Bass Voice, conveniently adding his hug and kisses of course, "how old are you today?" I showed four fingers.
" I don't believe you!
- Well, I am!
- I can't believe you!
- Well, should I show you my Medicare card?"

The WAY he visibly recoiled in horror, the expression of shocked horror on his face, it was like I could hear him audibly think, "EEEEEWWW, and to think that I wasted a perfectly good hard-on on this old douche bag!"

There were no more "Hel-LO (deep voice, arm around the shoulder, big smile) after that. Two years later, I saw him come in at the music department with some sweet young thing and a toddler in tow.

I never "looked my age", even what I was 20... I can't say people are treating me the way you describe, but that is because my face is not lined, my walk is very energetic and I cover my grey hair. But definitely I am not treated the same as when I was my early thirties - I have noticed I had better file a complaint by phone rather than in person, I get taken more seriously. Sheesh.

@Chris
Post #32 - I know what musicology is, I have a degree in that (nonsensical me!), but what is Queer Musicology?

TO ALL:
I had a job interview this week. I did my best to implement the bullet list earlier stated... Wish me luck that I at least make it to the next round!

Comment: #38
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:45 AM
Re: Diane Smith

I know it feels like you're letting her down, but her highkacking your entire day will not heal her. Pretend there is someone at the door or that you have something burning on the stove (it might even be true) and put an end to the call, once she starts rewinding the tape into a rerun.

Comment: #39
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:50 AM
First to the defense of the library employees world wide. When businesses are considering moving their companies to new locations they have certain things they look for to entice their employees along. Believe it or not, LIBRARIES are in the TOP 5 of necessities. The library is the place most people think of when trying to find out ANYTHING. Chamber of Commerces are out ranks in information requests of locale by the local libraries. "Essential" and not in any particular order are: medical care, essential shopping (each area of the country has their own specialties IE farming/ranching supplies), banking, schools, libraries, entertainment (golf/pools, parks, etc), churches. No, we don't have the Starbucks of the world, etc but the best Mom/pop coffee shoppes where you pay tops $2 for that fancy cup of coffee.
Follow the library staff around for 24 hours, I can't begin to list their multi amounts of diversity. Of all ages. And with a smile.
Bill Gates Foundation gave hundreds of thousands of dollars to small town libraries to set up top of the line computer labs. And updates them every 3-4 years. People passing through for what ever their reason find the library a place to connect online, gathering point, etc.
One nice thing in MN, your libraries belong to multi groupings--maybe 50 libraries--so if I check out a book at one of theirs, I can return it to the system at any of the others with the state.
Gone are the card catalogues (but every person should have to know the Dewy Decimal System--helps to sort how life and information is--no matter your technology) and even documentation of old records are online. AND library staff has to know ALL this stuff.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MIKE Re 24. Still has not remembered it. BUT up and out today for the annual TKD MASTERS motorcycle ride--he is doing the courtesy car (@ 70 he knows better NOT to start on a 2 wheeler--wants the new 3 wheeler cycle)--had a 2 hr drive to get to the start--touring up North in MN today. My youngest son was one of the organizers. Good thing they headed north cause we have rain again--moving south.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, Allie got me up early to potty, I pulled on clothes, went to grocery, got essentials to do baking--practice recipes for the country fair--and think it is time for a nap. Went to the late movie last night BRIDESMAIDS--It was so good to just laugh---IF the rain quits and sun comes out, will go push the mower around my acre of yard. Neighbors worked theirs last night.
Comment: #40
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:02 AM
Lise, you are so right. So much of how we're treated has to do with our appearance, not only how we do our hair, make-up and clothing, but also our physical features and our "age".

Like you, when I was nineteen, I looked like I was twelve. When I put on make-up, fixed my hair, and got dressed, I looked like a twelve year old wearing grown up clothes. It didn't help that I didn't get my braces taken off until I was almost 20.

When I was twenty-five I went to a stylist at Nordstrom for advice and she gave me many ideas, but most important, she told me not to disquise/change what I already had. She also said I was going to be grateful when I was forty, because I probably wouldn't look my age. And she is right, most people are shocked when I tell them I am forty-two.

When I was thirty-five, I went to my regular beautician and insisted she cut off all my hair in a Mia Farrow style pixie cut. To her credit, she tried to talk me out of it. But all I could envision was being in and out of the bathroom in twenty minutes and ready to walk out the door. Instead of the hour I was taking with longer hair. And that did work, I got ready much faster.

I look back on the pictures and know why I loved that cut. But unfortunately, it was too severe and I came out looking really butch. Even my FIL told me I looked like a lesbian. There is nothing wrong with lesbians, unless you are not one. Even with bright lipstick, heavier eye make-up, (think Audrey Hepburn) and always wearing something floral, perfume and earrings, I looked really manly. My husband, God bless him, told me how much he loved it.

The biggest shock was having men stop holding doors open for me. Or holding the elevator. Or even smile at me. Younger men around my age would snicker at me. Is this how butch lesbians are treated? It's awful. Now whenever I see ANYONE, I smile, I ask how they're day is going, how they are liking/hating the weather. It was worth it for the lesson I learned, but I probably won't ever cut my hair off like that again.

So I get the age discrimination, Lise, I really do. I hope your weekend is going great and your family is well.
Comment: #41
Posted by: Chelle
Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:12 AM
Joyce/MN
Thank you for that. Just the other day, I helped a lady who appeared to be from the Near East find ESL materials.
Many of the library users in my area cannot afford computers, ereaders, Internet access or even cell phones. There's also a large home-school crowd.
Besides, there are many materials out there that people would prefer to borrow rather than buy, also the average person cannot afford access to professional literature unless he/she works for someone who does, like a college/university.
Comment: #42
Posted by: LibraryKat
Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:26 AM
Lise: got it.

As for starting your own business: in America, it depends on *where* in America. California is the land of start-ups that turned into google, so people out there are much more accepting of that. They are also less education-focused than on the East Coast; as I joke (sort of joke, because it's almost true), around where I live, you need a master's degree to serve coffee at a bakery. There's always exceptions, but it's different here than out West.

Like you and Chelle, I don't look my age. But since I'm in my early 30s, not my late 30s, I get nailed with the other side of age discrimination. "Hey, I know that I look 20; please hire me and pay me six figures!". Um, yeah, that's been tough sometimes. Granted, I could cut my hair (it's quite long), but more make-up and a slightly different wardrobe help enough.

As for dating/attracting men: oh heavens. I don't tell many people that I'm not a natural redhead, but here it is on the internet, for everyone to see. I'm blonde underneath it, but started dying it red or auburn (depending on my mood, ha!) many years ago. (FYI - h enna does wonders to cover the grey. In fact, grey looks nicer with henna on it than the rest of your hair will.) At any rate - quiet girl, blonde hair to her waist, looks young - I attracted every single freakin predator out there. Every. Single. One. As I keep telling women, it's not the quantity of male attention, it's the quality, and there's some attention that's worse than none at all. (No, I don't find it *flattering* when married men in supervisory positions hit on me. It's exploitative. not sexy.)

By the way, a JD is a Juris Doctor degree, i.e. an American law degree.
Comment: #43
Posted by: Roxeanne de Luca
Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:33 AM
@LibraryKat

I hope you didn't think I was dissing you or your profession. I sort of used your earlier post as a springboard to making the larger point that some people get degrees in unusual fields but then whine when they can't find jobs. I happen to think Librarians are top notch and often under-appreciated. Thanks for your really enlightening follow-up post! I wish you the best in your job search. Speaking of which, have you considered large corporations? My large global company employs several Masters degreed librarians to manage its myriad research literature, patent portfolios, reference books, etc., and to generally aid researchers in their quests for knowledge.
Comment: #44
Posted by: Chris
Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:35 AM
@ Chris
I'm sorry, I did. I've been hearing too often how libraries are considered obsolete and it tends to put us on the defensive. However, librarians do have ourselves to blame; we don't market ourselves enough.
I have put myself forward as a research specialist; there's a large medical facility here. However, that's a highly specialized area and really needs further education and training.
My degree track is school library media but the local schools aren't hiring.
Thanks for the support. :)
Comment: #45
Posted by: LibraryKat
Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:56 AM
@Chelle
"Like you, when I was nineteen, I looked like I was twelve. "
Tee-hee! I married at 19 (almost 20), was pregnant at 21. I looked about 14. And it started to show right away, I was in maternity clothes at four months. By the time I was 7 months into it, it was like, oh, a belly, Lise shouldn't be far behind! At that time, I lived with my husband in Lafleche - it is right on the south shore of Montreal and part of Longueil now, but back then it was a separate town and one with a village mentality. On top of me looking way underage and like a unwed mother, this was early seventies and my husband looked like Jesus Christ with his long hair and beard. Can you imagine the snickering gossip that was being whispered being my back all the time? Oye vey.

After she was born, I didn't have any money, so I would go to Salvation Army and other thrift shops to buy baby clothes. I've always had an eye for good quality clothing and I would buy stuff dating back from when I was her age - embroidered ruffled cotton dresses, velvet coats and pants, she looked like a princess. Me, next to her, in patched jeans and faded T-shirts and still looking 14, well... I overheard people saying, pointing at her and me: "See this? This is a rich man's child, with her nanny!" The funny thing is, I did work as a nanny briefly before I married!

@Roxe
"I attracted every single freakin predator out there. "
Tee-hee, take two! The main fringe benefit of getting a breast reduction was that classless cretins with their brains in their parts stopped yelling at me from across the street or down from a third floor, in term that would be used to address some cheap porn flick slut. Some of the things that were yelled at me like that are not fit to write in a family feature. Good flamin' grief, man.

Comment: #46
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:00 AM
Re: PerpetualVictimLise- A screen name like that only makes people more sympathetic to Lise.
SL-Great comment.
Roxe- I ain't tellin' (about the dye).
Jenna,I'm sorry to hear that you've been fighting MS for so long.
Comment: #47
Posted by: Michael
Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:24 AM
I meant to start a Poor Victimized Lise timeline but I did not have that much paper. My goodness how could she have been a dancer with those huge breast? Everything she write is pure garbage. You people are just nuts to believe her ramblngs. How can she work 70 hours a week when she is posting online 24/7. She is just a foul mouth liar. I thought she was suppose to be kicked out of her nasty apartment by now. Is this baby the one she gave away? It is so hard to follow her great achievements entertwined with all her tragety. I would say Get a Life but she already has 7 or 8.
Comment: #48
Posted by: Sandy
Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:26 AM
Re: Chris- Now someone tells me that a degree in queer musicolgy is useless. I just got a Masters in it.
Lisa,I left you a message on yesterday's thread.
Lise,good luck ! I hope you get the job.
Comment: #49
Posted by: Michael
Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:33 AM
LW1 - I have to agree, this is one area where you need to MYOB. There's always a "shoot the messenger" mentality that takes place in these instances and, as it is, your believing you have evidence doesn't mean that your father really is having an affair. Furthermore his miserable marriage is his business and his choice, not yours. Your concern is understandable, you're only looking out for Dad, but you have to respect his choices as his own, even if they are mistakes, just as he'd do for you.

I can also vouch that miserable marriages have potential for improvement. Unless your crystal ball is back from the shop, you can't predict how things will continue to go for your father and stepmother.

LW2 - Sigh... yeah, sadly age discrimination is alive and well. I hate to say it but that's part of the reason I went back to school - my goal is to get into a field where I can be a consultant and the opportunity potential is expanding pretty nicely, even in these times. Even if it's not the same way in 20 years, the degree I'm currently pursuing will give me enough business know-how that I can still run my own ship in some way should I get laid off and be unable to find a job based on my birth date (and I agree that companies who play dirty like this are biting themselves in the butt).

I do think LibraryKat has a point - we may be out of the recession, technically (and surprisingly we have been since '09), but our recovery curve is virtually flat, which is why our economy still stinks and why the job market is still a mess. So the correlation between your age and your layoff may be valid (in which case I suggest contacting the EEOC because by law anyone over age 40 is in a protected class in the USA, and ditto if you're a woman), but your inability to find something new may be simply bad luck because a LOT of folks are in the same boat, regardless of age.

I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers that things will turn around for you soon. In the meantime check out the resources suggested by the Annies and BTL. LinkedIn is especially good, and as you connect with others you can check out how others set up their profiles as models for fine-tuning your own.

LW3 - "You're only going to have one mother. Treat her well while she's here."

I can see where the LW's father was coming from. Young adults can occasionally forget life doesn't go on captured in time forever, and that includes believing Mom and Dad might be around indefinitely.

That said, when parents and children are both adults, the relationship must be about MUTUAL respect. Adults are emancipated and equal with only a few exceptions.

Respect between adults doesn't happen with demands or directives, and it isn't borne out of shaming or guilting. It's earned. Parents need to remember their children might be younger, but they have no more guarantees of being on this planet any longer than the parents do. Neither should take the other for granted.

In a healthy loving family what LW3's father said is a good reminder... in a toxic situation, well, maybe not so much. Context matters.
Comment: #50
Posted by: PS
Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:20 PM
I must agree with the rest, LW1. It appears that he is doing what he wants by his affair with the BFF's mom. If you are not advising him on that I see no reason to think he would listen to you on this. It seems he does what he wants.
After having gone back and read all the fruckus about what is going on with the regular posters I would like to offer the advice one more time. Ya'll are giving out way too much personal information on this site. It is more appropriate on the alternative site at Delfi, where apparently some nice friendships have developed. I have visited there and you have some nice conversations. There you can comfort and confide in each other without upsetting the rest. If nothing of a personal nature is discussed here then no one can attack and no ones feelings can be hurt.
Comment: #51
Posted by: Penny
Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:54 PM
@Lise
Comment #38

I enjoyed your story about the guy in line with you. I've always looked younger than my age, which is why this recent "Sweetie" stuff is surprising me. Oh, and I talk young, walk briskly, and stand up straight. It could be not just the gray hair, but the fact that I'm short? Don't know.... Would like to color my hair, but I have thin fine hair and am afraid this would damage it; I have to take care of what I've got!
And would you believe that many years ago when a 24-year-old guy learned I was 28 he looked as shocked as though he'd been hitting on someone 90!! And I was still too young to even qualify as a cougar....
Comment: #52
Posted by: Linda
Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:58 PM
Re: Penny

You are welcome to post at Delphi and not just visit. As for the information, I for one, like 99% of the ones sharing information here, do so because it is a case in point to something being discussed, generally the letter. And as for keeping it confined to Delphi, there have been some who lurked there on a little reconnaissance mission, picked up some information shared over there and turned it into turd bombs here. Even today.

There are some people who really have too much time on their hands - and a lot of rage in their hearts.

Comment: #53
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:16 PM
Re: Linda

Salons have lines of products available to them that are not sold in pahrmacies. If you can afford to have your hair coloured in a salon once a month, that might be an option.

If you lived in Montreal, there is a product called Spectra, only used professionally, not available in pharmacies, but you can order it. I don't know if they would deliver by mail (certainly not right now, it'll end up in the same place as Zoe's wedding dress!), they deliver to me at home and I order 10-12 tubes at a time so it's worth it. It's very mild - no amonia stench, not skin rash, and it works very well.

But I think it's very local. It tried to look it up on the Net for you and the Sêctra I found doesn't seem to be them.

Comment: #54
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:26 PM
Re: Lise Brouillette, Thanks for the invite.
Truely you do leave yourself wide open for someone to take pot shots at you for all of the personal info you post. I didn't read anything in the posts today that you have not posted on the Annies site. (I am saying this nicely because sometimes it's difficult to read something in the vein that is is intended) Mostly what I have read at Delfi is cute banter among friends. Occasionally anger towards "she whose name will not be spoken". Even on that site I have read how disgruntled people are at how this site has denigrated into a fighting match between differing factions. So perhaps if posters would not open their lives to the world it would settle down. You could help do this by limiting the info you give then there would be no anonymity towards you and no one would need to jump to your defense. (Again this is all said nicely) People can debate ideas here and disagree and still be civil. But it does appear that you are the centre of all the infighting. So maybe you could be a big help in ending all this ugliness by being a bit more circumspect in your sharing and language. ;0)
Comment: #55
Posted by: Penny
Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:27 PM
I've been looking for work for a year now, and have often wondered if my age, 51, is working against me. I think I will contact some places I've applied at and see if they will tell me if there's anything in particular that made them decide against me. Or with some, it might have been sheer numbers of applications.

I have a Filipino friend, and she says that there, anyone 30 or over who's looking for work and not currently employed might as well not try. Can you believe that? 30? Yipe!

Comment: #56
Posted by: jar8818
Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:47 PM
@Sandy, I'm so sorry, you sound so bitter and so unhappy, but it seems a bit odd to me that you would be so focused on the electronic postings of someone you don't seem to like very much. I really recommend just skipping those posts if you find them so infuriating. I'm sure there must be other things or people in your life that you'd feel much better about if you took that energy focused on Lise and instead put it elsewhere. There's really no need to spend so much time worrying about Lise's posts if you don't like them, honestly. It might help you to have a happier day, too.

@ Penny, it's true, what you suggest, but if we removed too much of the personal, then the comments would become rather bland, don't you think? I mean, it's often our individual life experiences that give us insight into certain LW's problems.

And even so, it seems like there are a few determined and unhappy people out there who would probably make things up in order to keep drama going. It's not as if that hasn't already happened, even. But you are right, it is good for all of us to remember to think about what personal information we reveal in a public forum.
Comment: #57
Posted by: Mike H
Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:03 PM
Re: Mike H You are a sweet man!
Not only is it bad form to put your life out for the world to see but it can quite frankly be dangerous and embarassing as Anthony Weiner can surely attest to. I would not disclose my name (as it is fairly well known) nor anything personal about my family. Anything anyone post online is forever you can not take it back. Simple antidotes are fine but opening up your closets and drawers is asking for trouble. Sometimes people need to be reminded.
Comment: #58
Posted by: Penny
Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:45 PM
Re: Penny

I thank you kindly for the warning.

Perhaps I am naive, but it would never occur to me that simple anecdotes about one's life could be... dangerous to share, especially as I haven't said anything here or at Delphi that is a deep, dark secret of something I am ashamed of. I am certainly not sending pictures of my private anatomy to anyone in any way, shape or form.

I know about propriety and I would never talk about my personal life to anyone at work - for instance. But, for my friends, my life has always been an open book. One thing at least I can never fear, is that my survivors be left to deal, like some letter writers we've seen in these threads, with a terrible secret bursting out in the open after my death, because I have no such secrets. Again, call me naive of you will, but I simply cannot understand how some people would just want to dig up whatever information they can scrounge and then try to use it to hurt someone they've never even met.

Comment: #59
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:08 PM
Re: Lise Brouillette Thank you for your use of the words 'private anatomy'. "Anyone at work" could be me or Mike or Shawnee. Lise sharing with your friends may be fine for you, but you are also sharing with Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy and the creepy guy next door. You don't know who you are sharing with. Here is what I know; you are a 59 year old woman living alone in a bad neighborhood in Montreal , Canada. You work mainly from your home so you will be home most days. Your cat can not help you. The LOYL is a stinking rascal and will most likely not be there. You have a daughter that does not live with you. You drive a van. The list goes on and on. Now let me go online and google you. For a fee I can find out where you live, your phone number, and lots more information. (Now I sound creepy). Let me give you a quote, " but I simply cannot understand how some people would just want to dig up whatever information they can scrounge and then try to use it to hurt someone they've never even met." Exactly!!!!! So don't give them the ammo.
Comment: #59
Comment: #60
Posted by: Penny
Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:37 PM
Re: Lise Brouillette
You are correct! Here I am! But I appreciate the comments and advice, either way. I never heard it from a father to his son, tho. That's a new one. Meanwhile, as I'm writing this, my kids are competing who can jump the highest and run the fastest, just being their silly selves, reminding me that no matter what, life can be fun. But I like the perspective the Annies are giving me, as well as the comments, all the way around. But I'm still missing my mother in law. Thanks for remembering me, Lise.
Comment: #61
Posted by: happymom
Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:41 PM
Re: happmom
Opps! I just seen a poster, I think her name was Jenna, that had MS too, and that you asked if marijuana helped. I tried marijuana a LONG time ago, and was too paranoid to function. Marijuana isn't for everyone, but it works for those who have muscle spasms, which I don't have. But there are amazing drugs out there, from Avonex, to Copaxone, to Chemo that can stop the progression of this disease. Hope this helps, if you know someone in our shoes. What people don't know is that a lot of people, like me, who have MS have symptoms that are not obvious to the average person: Blindness in one or both eyes (me), tingling, numbness in extremities, the list can go on and on! But thanks for your concern tho. MS is NOT fun.
Comment: #62
Posted by: happymom
Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:55 PM
Re: LibraryKat
School library media. Well, in our school districts (anything outside of Metro St Paul/Mpls) must multi task that job. English teaching background a must, also must run the visual arts departments in schools, you know, make the videos, etc Seniors get to take Mass Communication and that is who teaches it! Every senior wants to take that class. As close to TV work as any will ever get, gets to use expensive equipemnt, learn to edit. I do all this on the side as a ?hobby? and I finally got the same editing programs as the school so I could be compatible with things in the community. We have a public access channel (run through school media) and anything of public interest can be run through there. I do alot of community based programs and editing for groups to be shown. Heaven knows the technology changes on a blink, so I would not want to be teaching this unless someone else was buying the updates in equipment. As a community volunteer I have had opportunity to use their professional cameras (I thought my $1000 one was hot--till used theirs!) . But I can edit VHS or DVD format. As well as pictorials.

Had a cousin who did the media specialist thing with and English backround, went to Saudi Arabia to teach/run programs in an American High School there. With the middle eastern war break outs, she came back to the USA. Spent about 20 years there.
Comment: #63
Posted by: Joyce/MN
Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:56 PM
Re: Penny

Geesh, it looks like they have plenty to work with already... You are just about scaring the heebeejees out of me.

I do try to be careful however. I don't answer the door when I'm not expecting anyone. At night, I'm acutely aware of my surroundings when I walk. My neighbourhood is not the best - not by a long shot. There are a lot of drugs, it's very Welfare and retired seniors on a fixed income, there's a rooming house full of crazies next door. I do try to walk the fine line between keeping my distances and not looking too uppity and therefore antagonising them - it makes for better neighbourly relations ( I don't WANT to fight with people...) and then, you never know who can help you in the future... The place has a new janitor who's nice enough, so things have gotten better there. At least they cleaned up their back yard, Alhamdulilah, it was a fire hazard.

It's not the worst neighbourhood either - no drive-by shootings so far... And there are no bars in this borough, so no drunks to harass you in the dead of night when you need to go to the 24/7 depanneur if you happen to be cooking in the middle of the night because you can't sleep. One thing in my favour, is that, although I am home a lot, yes, on the other hand, I do not have any predictable schedule. I do have an alarm system. I don't care how dead broke I get, I am NOT living without that.

I know you're right - in principle. I just find it so hard to be suspicious of people, because I myself will trust until I have reason not to. I am NOT gullible - I'm VERY GOOD at catching inconsistencies in people's stories. But I am in good faith myself, and therefore tend to project that unto other people, and I will believe until I do indeed see the inconsistencies.

I do not know which approach is better, yours or mine... Perhaps it makes no difference in the end. I do believe in fate, and that if something is due to happen to you, it will happen anywhere. Not that it means you have to "tempt the Devil", like we say in French, and live recklessly... I hope you know what I mean.

Comment: #64
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:11 PM
Jenna: try Avonex for your MS. It does wonders for some people, only needs to be taken once a week, and can have very mild or no side effects. The downsides: it needs to be refrigerated at all times, so you can't take it with you on travel; some people get queasy and weak after taking it, so it can interfere with your life for one day a week (however, you can take it on the weekend); and you have to inject it.

Lise:
"Again, call me naive of you will, but I simply cannot understand how some people would just want to dig up whatever information they can scrounge and then try to use it to hurt someone they've never even met."
The assumption you are making, which I totally understand, is that people are rational, sane, or limited in their crazy. You aren't accounting for sociopaths.

Now, someone I know worked at a hotline back in the day (like the late '80s). She talked to a person who called in, got to be friendly, told him her first name, the town she lived in, some basic stuff. He then started calling her up and talking about more personal things - things he had found out from going through her trash. Yikes.

PLEEEASSE take this in the way it is meant: when we were talking about predators and whack jobs upthread, you mentioned men who would cat-call you. If that is the extent of your experience with nutjobs (aside from your ex-husband), please count yourself lucky. There are people who will listen to the radio, drive around town, loiter in front of schools, or yes, read online comment threads, and someone will catch their eye, he'll hone in, and the next thing you know, the stalker is raping, killing, or harassing the victim. As much as we all may disagree, what all of us want is for any potential whack job to realise that he can't get enough info on any of us to stalk and harass, then move along to something - anything! - else.
Comment: #65
Posted by: Roxeanne de Luca
Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:56 PM
Re: Sandy Your interest in Lise's breast size is interesting,but I'm tired of this tit-for-tat stuff.
Comment: #66
Posted by: Michael
Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:15 PM
I'm glad my mother reminded me to put in those hyphens. She just forced me to watch an entire Mets game in my basement. In related news : Everybody have fun tonight. Every other Mike here wang chung tonight. It's time we made this place fun again. Peace everybody.



Michael the First
Comment: #67
Posted by: Michael
Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:22 PM
Peace to you, too, Michael! Good night everyone!!!
Comment: #68
Posted by: happymom
Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:53 PM
Peace to you, too, Michael! Good night everyone!!!
Comment: #69
Posted by: happymom
Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:53 PM
Peace to you, too, Michael! Good night everyone!!!
Comment: #70
Posted by: happymom
Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:53 PM
Oye Vey. LW1 Stay out of it. Simple.

LW2. No, 62 is not old. (this coming from a 20 year old!)
I work with several ladies over the age of sixty, in fact one of the more energetic workers we have is 69. She was hired when she was 64. Getting a job these days is hard. Just keep handing out resumes.

And I forget who suggested it, but DO NOT put links of your Facebook and Twitter on your resume. It is UNPROFESSIONAL and at the end of the day management couldn't give two shits whether or not you can "keep up with the times", it's all about whether or not you can do the job at hand. And if working with a computer system, they realise that you wouldn't be appyling for the job if you didnt think you could handle.
Comment: #71
Posted by: FireGiggles
Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:54 PM
And don't put a picture on a resume either. Or print it on floral paper, or scented paper, or neon paper.

Comment: #72
Posted by: Mike H
Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:08 PM
Oh, and I tried to post this earlier, but because interviewers aren't allowed to ask questions about age, and if you don't look your age, then you are probably worried about your resume giving away the story.

But if that is the case, you should feel free to take out your very earliest jobs, especially if they are less related to the position you are applying to. There are ways to be honest and direct about your most relevant experience without have to give your entire history.
Comment: #73
Posted by: Mike H
Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:14 PM
Dear Annie,
Maybe I am old fashioned, or this is a new trend, but here is my question. MY husband & I belong to a car club(Corvette). We have some members who live in British Columbia. In mid-March I received an email from one couple. Their town was having a car show in early June. She wrote to invite anyone who was going to drive up to the car show to come to dinner at their home after the show. They were doing this for welcoming them into the club and being so nice. The dinner was great, but before we started to eat, another couple (who is also from BC) started collecting money for the meal. NO where in the original email was there any mention that this dinner was going to cost anything. Being quite surprised, I gave the couple who was collecting money $10, and was informed snipity that it was $10 per person, so I had to get another $10.
I was always brought up that if you invite anyone to dinner at your home (unless it is stipulated first) that you as host & hostess provide the meal with no strings attached. If you can't afford what you are planning then serve something cheaper or don't invite people at all My husband & I were pretty shocked at the whole thing. Were we
in the wrong? or were the host & hostess? I would appreciate some advice. One thing we learned : if there is a next time, we'll be prepared or we will decline gracefully.
Thank you,
Colbertlady
Comment: #74
Posted by: Barb Beck
Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:18 PM
Lise - Thanks for trying to find out about that hair coloring product - that was nice of you! I'll do some investigation of my own, too....
Signing off past my bedtime LOL!
Linda
Comment: #75
Posted by: Linda
Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:35 PM
Mike H.:

I was told by a college business instructor that your jobs for the last 10 years should be enough, but I would guess that if you have relevant jobs earlier than that, it would be good to put it in the resume and perhaps leave out any jobs that are irrelevant. Not sure about that tho.



Comment: #76
Posted by: jar8818
Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:50 PM
Barb Beck,
This is NOT where you send a letter to the Annies. Their email address is at the bottom of their column. This is where people can "release their inner therapist" and comment on the day's letters. That being said, it sounds like you were taken for a ride. I think you should have said to your hosts what you said in your letter, " NO where in the original email was there any mention that this dinner was going to cost anything. I was always brought up that if you invite anyone to dinner at your home (unless it is stipulated first) that you as host & hostess provide the meal with no strings attached." Then I would have gotten up and politely excused myself and left.
Comment: #77
Posted by: Claudia
Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:25 PM
Re: happymom- Thank you! Good night.
Comment: #78
Posted by: Michael
Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:30 PM
Re: Barb Beck

You were not in the wrong. That was tacky - any expense ought to have been outlined clearly at the outset, and it was not. Be prepared for more of the same the next time over - either you want to put up with it or you decline. Your choice. At least now you know - NOW.

Comment: #79
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:10 PM
Re: Linda

Linda, perhaps your hairdresser can find out. They have avenues that we don't. Furthermore. I'm more than willing to forward the phone number of the place. If you can't strike an agreement with them, perhaps your hairdresser can?

Comment: #80
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:29 PM
@jar8818, that's not a bad basic rule, but you should always be prepared to adapt your resume to the specific job you are applying for.

I usually like to see the last three positions, even if that means covering more than 10 years.

If you've had a very variable career, with several unrelated positions, it's also okay to list "Relevant Experience", and just be prepared to explain any perceived "gaps" in your employment history ("I only listed the jobs most pertinent to this position, but I can certainly talk about the other jobs I've had").

It really depends on the job you are applying for. Have a "master resume" that you tailor to every different job you apply for. Same thing with cover letters.
Comment: #81
Posted by: Mike H
Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:37 AM
@Penny - Wow... I think you drove your point home! I very good and solid point, but dang! Let me just put it out there that I have two giant pit bulls Named Bruiser and Bouncer who dine only on fresh raw meat and who are exceedingly loyal to me and my family should anyone in cyberspace get any ideas about staging a home invasion...
Comment: #82
Posted by: sharnee
Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:00 AM
Re: sharnee
Gee, perhaps I should call my new cat Fang, or something... I would like to add that, while Penny and Roxe are perfectly right, the fact remains that even extremely private people who never reveal anything about the private life are still at risk. For a fee, your name could be Googled too, and the information standardly available about EVERYONE is quite staggering. Especially you, Roxe, I believe you're using your real name also, which is a lot less common than dime-a-dozen mine, and I also remember you mentioning a blog... you wouldn't be hard to find.

Well, none of us can live hidden under the bed forever...I agree that some freak looking to hone in on someone to victimise is more likely to pick someone who's posted some personal information about their life - me being one of them, if hardly the only one. But freaks also hone in on someone they see on a bus, or walking down the street... Or they choose a district and then pick a house. There is no end to the creativity of craziness, no one is really safe from that and frankly, I find all of that a bit overwhelming... :-(

Michael Post 66
I FINALLY caught the pun, tit for tat, hee hee - took me a while

For those who are interested to know, I was never a ballet dancer, as I do not have the physique - too big-boned, muscular and heavy even when was I was very trim. Poor male dancers would have broken their backs lifting me. But there are many other dance styles where a large rack is no impediment... check out African dancers, they're sometimes more endowed than I was even before the surgery!

Comment: #83
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:36 AM
LOL, Chris! Actually, I think golf course management is a pretty hot field these days. Aging/retiring boomers can often still play golf -- even if they can no longer jog, play tennis or play pickup basketball, and as more women have started to play, there's more demand for courses, which need to be managed.

But those obscure degrees CAN work for a student who can convince a prospective employer that the overall liberal arts education gave enough exposure to multiple disciplines that the student can do big picture thinking, analysis and problem solving.

It reminds me of my classmates who moaned about how impractical geometry proofs were -- "I'll never use these when I'm out of school." Well, no -- not that specifically. But you WILL learn how to read a problem, look for clues as to how to solve it, attack it in a step-by-step manner based on relevant experience that you've had, just about every single day -- whether you're potty-training a toddler, buying a house, planning a hostile takeover, writing a year-end report, opening a new franchise or developing a new product. You just have to recognize what the actual skill that's being developed IS, is all.
Comment: #84
Posted by: hedgehog
Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:09 PM
"Well, you'll never specifically need push-ups or laps or speed drills after school, either, and yet Coach makes you do all those things. Why?"
"To get my body in the best possible condition, so that I can do something I *do* want to do: play football!"
"Trig is push-ups for your brain."

Comment: #85
Posted by: Khlovia
Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:33 AM
Re: PerpetualVictimLise. Your post made me laugh out loud. Don't listen to your detractors here who came galloping to Lise's defense.

I think you made a lot of valid points, personally, and it's good to know I'm not the one who's made certain observations. Some people do enjoy whining in this space about their personal problems. Lise particularly seems to enjoy airing her complaints about the entire male gender, based on the handful of interactions she's had with them. For me the tipping point came when she admitted she's carrying around not only her own decades-old frustrations with guys, but also those of other women with whom she apparently likes to commiserate!

I stopped engaging with her over at Delphi, because I decided it was absurd to be arguing with someone my mother's age living 4,000 miles away in another country...about whether or not the entire Christian church really does have a double standard when it comes to the sexual behavior of men and women. What's sad is that I know she's better than this deep down, but chooses not to be. As she would say, "Yrrrrch."
Comment: #86
Posted by: Matt
Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:58 PM
Re: Matt
Anybody who reads my posts with a fair mind will know that I don't side with either men or women, I go by behaviour and circumstance. As for my ""whining" about my "personal life", the last time I mentioned the housing crisis was upon request, a very matter-of-factly brief update and even that was months ago. Any example I use from my entourage as a case in point is in exactly in the same vein as everybody else here, you included.

And why would you attack me so viciously? I certainly never attacked YOU. Not only that, but I defended you many times and I'm even the one who advised JoannaKathryn to unlock you at Delphi when you were begging to be let back in. This is what I get for being forgiving and generous.

Considering you yourself asked me to friend you on Delphi, I think you have one of those flip-flop problems some people suffer from. Not to mention that anybody who reads YOUR posts with a fair mind will know very fast, the minute the letters of the day touch any of your hot-button subjects, who exactly has a problem with relationships in general and women in particular - among others.

Comment: #87
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:26 AM
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