Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

LW-2 Ummm, excuse me, regardless if you think the English language is "fluid" and open to be hacked up with bad grammar, is really a poor euphemism for excusing laziness of the correct use of our language. I'm am right there with Albany. I don't speak WALMART!

LW1 -
You're right that Missy needs professional help, and you're right that she'll turn on you same as she did on everybody else who even hinted at siding with her hated SIL.

And yes, Missy is being a horrible, bullying witch. She's allowed not to like someone, but to demand that the whole world ostracise that person as if she was the Queen of the universe is controlling, vindictive and vicious. Her tastes do not constitute a royal edict.

All this being stated, NO, there isn,t anything you can do. As much as you're witness to it, this is none of your business.

LW2 -
Languages and English may be fluid, but speaking of fluids, it makes my blood boil to see any language slaughtered by bad grammar and spelling. Kind of like a flat tone to my highly sensitive ear. I think I prefer chalk screeching on the blackboard.

LW1 We don't have the whole story. Maybe "Missy" did something truly horrible and deserved to be shunned.

Re: sarah stravinska
You mean Aunt Martha. Perhaps she did, but it still doesn't justify forcibly keeping her husband away from his sister, and certainly not disowning her own children and grandchildren. Yrrrch.

* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *

LW3 refers to the final letter on 16 February 2013, which itself referred to the first letter on 13 January 2013 (Heartbroken in New York).

LW1 - We don't know what Aunt Martha did to make Missy feel the way she does toward her, but she is definitely wrong to take her animosity out on her children and grandchildren. That being said, there is nothing the LW can do to rectify the situation, and it's really up to Missy's children and grandchildren to tackle the problem they now have with their mother and grandmother. To answer the LW's question: No, there isn't anything she can do about it, and she's right that she will probably lose Missy's friendship if she tries to interfere. Personally, I wouldn't want the friendship of such a person, but of course that's the LW's decision.

LW2 - I've always been horrified that some phrases and words which are misused seem to work their way into the language rather than being corrected, especially by the media. It often seems as though if words are used incorrectly, the misuse becomes acceptable and I agree with Lise that hearing words misused hurts my ears. The words "further and farther" and "less and fewer" come to mind. They have different meanings, but have become interchangeable and most people no longer seem to know the difference or when it is correct to use one over the other.

LW1: I'm sorry to say, although you seem a good family friend, there's little you can do. If you say too much too strongly, then Missy might think you are on "Aunt Martha's" side too, and then you'll get cut off and have no influence left. If she complains first when talking to you, you might make some gentle comments nudging her into not taking this out on her children. That's probably about the best you can do. Given how you describe her, I worry that even trying to suggest she get family counseling or go see her doctor will set her off -- but you know her best, and I suppose if you see an opportunity for that, it might be worth it, too.

LW2: I got nothing to add. It ain't pretty, but the Annies are right. I'm sure there were people bemoaning the disappearance of the words "thee" and "thou".

LW3: I also like to remind people that there are recovery and support programs other than AA and Alanon, and if you find Alanon isn't really resonating for you, don't give up, but keep looking for a support program that works for you.

LW1 - There's really nothing you can do to help. Sure, you can talk to Missy, but I would advise against that. She will likely get angry at you for "taking Aunt Martha's side." I would bet my home that if you said anything, it would turn into drama. Stay out of other people's drama. It's not worth it. I think Missy is being very childish for disowning her children and grandchildren for speaking to Aunt Martha but that's her problem. She has to be the one to deal with the regrets and lonliness later in life.

LW2 - It irritates me, too. I work in broadcasting and I am often complimented by "older" co-workers on how well spoken I am. They almost always say, "That's rare for your generation." Sad, isn't it? And I'm not fresh out of college or in my 20's...I'm in my mid 30's.

LW2 - Amen! @Lise Brouillette - absolutely.

I work with women who use the word "seen" for every verb tense of "to see". They also combine it with the ever popular "this here" and "that there" phrase, ala "I seen that there cereal on sale". I cringe when I hear this. This isn't just a fluid change in the language, it's a complete disregard for the rules. Correcting them does no good, and since I attended the same high school as one of the main offenders, I'm not sure where she picked up this awful habit.

Re: John P. Wilson
I completely agree! My personal pet grammar peeve? This insistence on using "I" instead of "me" no matter whether it is the subject or the object. Yes, it is correct to say: "John and I went to the movies with Mary."; but it is NOT correct to say: "Mary went to the movies with John and I."! Would anyone seriously say: "Mary went to the movies with I."? Well then, it isn't correct to use "I" no matter how many others went with Mary!
I hear even very highly educated people constantly make this mistake. It is as if people are afraid of the word "me". When I correctly use the word "me", I have received looks that make it clear some think I cannot speak correctly.
Oh well, I will persist in the use of proper grammar against all odds.

Re: John P. Wilson
I completely agree! My personal pet grammar peeve? This insistence on using "I" instead of "me" no matter whether it is the subject or the object. Yes, it is correct to say: "John and I went to the movies with Mary."; but it is NOT correct to say: "Mary went to the movies with John and I."! Would anyone seriously say: "Mary went to the movies with I."? Well then, it isn't correct to use "I" no matter how many others went with Mary!
I hear even very highly educated people constantly make this mistake. It is as if people are afraid of the word "me". When I correctly use the word "me", I have received looks that make it clear some think I cannot speak correctly.
Oh well, I will persist in the use of proper grammar against all odds.

Re LW2 - I know there are some Judge Judy fans below the line. Did you catch the episode where she said that "conversate" may now be used in her courtroom?! In the past, she had always corrected anyone who used it, but actually announced that as it has appeared in the latest edition of her dictionary, it is now allowed.

But I do see a difference between bad grammar and adopting a "new" word.

LW1: Missy sounds like a real winner - her children are probably relieved that they don't have to deal with her any more. I'm more concerned for you, and why you feel the need to be friends with this person.

Regarding the poor grammer and such...I went to college with a number of foreign exchange students. They were pretty fluent in English but had a very hard time with the language once they came to America. They learned proper English but didn't hear that when they came here! One girl said, "Everyone here says strange words and they push everything together. It's hard to understand!" For example, instead of sayng, "I don't know," people say, "eye-dno." From what I'm told, Americans don't have the easiest time getting around in England.

LW1: I've got to agree with most up here – unless Aunt Martha truly did something wrong, Missy comes off as bitter and mean and needs to knock it off. If not, she's going to risk alienating her entire family.

Missy, you need to tell us what Aunt Martha did that was so wrong. Doesn't matter if it was steal a dollar bill or steal "your man" to allowing sexual abuse to your children ... she needs to speak up, whatever the cause is. Even if Aunt Martha "knows," it sure would clear the air.

If there was a way to MAKE Missy attend the wedding or else dire serious consequences, I would. Unfortunately, short of kidnapping her, there's little that can be done.

LW2: I realize I mangle the language sometimes, but I'd ask the LW this: And you haven't been guilty of mangling the language sometimes? It's one thing to insist on proper English, but when we're all guilty of it at times ... well, that's what my pet peeve is.

Old English teacher, correct thyself. (A play on the old "Doctor, heal thyself." And that's not saying Albany is an old English teacher with time on her hands, either.)

Re: Mary Clark

You sound like the life of the party, my dear!

Re LW#1-----
I would, of course, like to know WHAT Martha did that made Missy so angry she cut her out of her life. And unless it's something really horrendous, I have a major problem with her expecting her entire family to follow suit. I can see very few circumstances where anyone is justified in doing that; and as far as her husband---------can't think of any way my spouse would ever be able to not "allow" me to speak to my sister, although there might be circumstances where I would decide that on my own, as an adult person.
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And everyone who says there is nothing you can do about it is right; if you feel strongly enough, you can talk to her about it, and probably have her shun you too. That might be a good thing, if she really is someone who cuts people out of her life if they don't agree with her. I feel sorry for her daughters; but I would bet that this is not the only area where she insists people do what she wants or get removed from her life. Maybe it's a good thing for them in the long run.

Re: Mary Clark
"Oh well, I will persist in the use of proper grammar against all odds."
I agree with you! It's amazing how many people think when you're using proper grammar that you're wrong and they're correct.

LW1--Your friend "Missy" seems like the mother of all drama queens. The fact that she "won't allow" her husband to speak to his own sister takes the cake. Based on your account of the histrionic letter this woman wrote to her children and grandchildren trying to emotionally blackmail them into shunning 'Aunt Martha' or else, I would be inclined to tell her good riddance. Missy is toxic and obviously has no conflict resolution skills to speak of. If she wishes to destroy her relationships with her progeny over some long ago slight then it's her loss.

LW2--" Have we become so lazy that everything we hear is acceptable?" In a word, yes. Evidently you haven't seen the so called texting shorthand that passes for communication nowadays.

A French professor once told me that languages are living things, and therefore suffer changes like everything else. Most of these changes are due to convenience, i.e. you say more things with less syllables. I believe he was very right in that, though it's been hard to accept since I find grammar in my native language particularly beautiful. I still cringe every time I see a missing or misplaced accent. I suppose I'd be pretty annoyed at grammatical slaughtering in English as well, if the English language made a lick of sense to me.

@Mary Clark: UGH, that's one of my biggest pet peeves too!! I have a friend who constantly says “I” when it should be “me.” She also mixes up “set” with “sit”. It's like nails on a chalkboard. In my opinion, there is no polite way to correct someone's grammar, so I just accept it. With that said, it's still nice to vent to strangers on an internet forum ;)

LW1: Carolyn Hax recently had an excellent answer to a LW who was wondering if she should "say something" out of concern for a friend even at the risk of losing the friendship. CH mentioned it is sometimes the most unselfish act to do that. I think it's in order here, as well.

There's no guarantee she will listen. Some people do need to get burned to realize the stove really is hot But there's more chance that she'll hear this from a longtime friend than if you say nothing (and let your silence give her the false impression that you agree with her action).

You do need to phrase carefully:

"Missy, we've been friends for a long time; I hope that will never change. This is difficult for me to say, but I am very worried that in attempting to win this feud with Martha, you will lose everything you've worked a lifetime for -- your kids, your grandkids and maybe even your husband.

"I understand you don't like Martha. That is your right, and I don't blame you. But drawing a line in the sand like that for your family is essentially handing them over to her with a big red bow on top, for now and for all christenings, baby showers, weddings, graduations and funerals to come.

Family has always been so important to you that I have trouble believing that's what you want. Would you like me to help you brainstrorm some ways to stop this train before it's too late? "

Re: hedge #23
Excellent post. Carolyn is one of my favorites, she tells it like it is, and everything she says is just common sense, given to people who are too close to the situation to realize it.
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Your wording is perfect------almost exactly as Carolyn would say it herself. (Are you sure you're not Carolyn in disguise?)

Re: Kitty #7
How can people learn to make the difference when, all too often, nothing is being taught properly anymore? My personal beef if with "I could care less" instead of I couldN'T care less". Double negatives are bad enough, but to remove the negative altogether and still think you're meaning the same thing? Why don't people start saying "I go there" instead of "I won't go there", and see if they'll be understood! And then, there's "noone" instead of "no one". "No" and "one" are two words, and if you stick them together, then it looks sounding like "noon".

@Rebecca #10
Your friend probably learned it from the almighty idiot box, she though it sounded "cool", and started using it herself. Evidently, she doesn't realise that there is nothing cool about sounding like a barefoot, illiterate hillbilly!

@Mary Clark
"I hear even very highly educated people constantly make this mistake"
My friend Shirley lives by the word of the goddess TV. The way she treats it, you'd think it's Yahweh's commanding voice booming out of the Burning Bush. I used to get stinkingly mad at her for saying "I could care less", and she'd shriek, "but they say it on TV! If it's good enough for Pulse news, then it's good enough for me!" And I'd snap back, It's not good enough for the Webster!

I don't bother wasting my breath addressing it when it comes from someone too untutored to know better, otherwise I'd be on my soapbox 24/7 and the whole world would hate my guts. But this is a woman who majored in English (one of the handful I've personally known with the competence to correct my English), and she would fall into traps like that? Oye vey. She's gotten much better about that, perhaps she got the point when I mentioned she certainly didn't SOUND like and English major!

There is more than bad education at play here, there are also wimpy people with no backbone, picking up everything like a chameleon soaking up colour. If they hear or read anything often enough, then it becomes the new normal. Flippin' lemming mentality. Drives me ding-dong batty.

@Girl Scout Leader #13
Missed that episode. New words (whether one likes the words or not) are adopted all the time, in any language. English is particularly proficient at this, since any noun can be converted into a verb, an adverb and an adjective. The English langage is missing a term to designate anything? No problemo, you just import the word as is, and you can then turn it into a verb, an adverb or an adjective without even having to anglicise it. Neat.

Bad grammar is different, because it alters the structure of the language, and altering the structure also alters the thinking process behind it.

Mind you... Some misused word are indicative of a faulty thinking process as well. One word everybody uses that I absolutely hate is "goodness". Redundant. That, and badness, and badly. And then there are words which completely contradict and therefore negate the term they are supposed to qualify, like "meatless tourtiere". Sorry, but a tourtiere is a meat pie. Saying "meatless tourtiere" is like saying "meatless meat pie". Remove the meat, and it's not a tourtiere anymore. Call it a tofu pie, or a legume pie or whatever, but not a tourtiere! Another huge argument I used to have with my friend Shirley. It would be like calling a soup "matzoh-less matzoh-ball", I used to tell her. Either she finally got it or learned to humour me, because she no longer uses that term in front of me.

And then, there is the tendency with Americans to spell everything phonetically, like "lite" for light". I believe this sometimes comes from publicity, where marketting moguls will alter a spelling when it's part of a brand name, to make it look new, hip and cool. But people pick up on it as it was the new accepted spelling, not to mention that it's easier (hence the demise in the USA of the "u" in colour, honour, etc, and "realise" spelled as "realize")...

And btw, Mike, words that "completely contradict and therefore negate the term they are supposed to qualify" is exactly the problem I have with "semi-vegetarian". ;-D

I was going to conclude with "end of rant", but I'm not sure I'm finished! Linguistics is a rather sensitive spot with me, and I love discussing it! ;-D

Re: Dorothy P
Actually, she sounds like someone whose corrections I would accept. Engliosh is not my mother tongue. If my English has reached the level it has in spite of me getting started on it with the Beatles, it is in part because I have accepted (and still do) corection from people who know the language well enough.

@Kitty #19
That's because they go by the majority. If more and more people insist on using correct English, it's that much counterbalancing gutter English. My friend Shirley hasn't said "I could care less" or uttered nonsense like "meatless tourtieres" for a long time... I'll never know if it's because I danced on her head often enough to finally make an imprint, but it's possible!

For thilke cause, if that ye rede, I wolde go the middel weie and wryte a bok betwen the tweie, somwhat of lust, somewhat of lore, that of the lasse or of the more som man mai lyke of that I wryte.

Hurray!! Grammar discussion! John P. Wilson, I am in complete agreement with your sentiment, but please, sir, look at this: "regardless if you think the English language is "fluid" and open to be hacked up with bad grammar, is really a poor euphemism for excusing laziness of the correct use of our language. I'm am right there with Albany..."

Oops. It should be "regardless of whether or not you think...." You then inserted the verb "is" without a clear subject. And did you mean to write "I'm am right there"?

We all mess up sometimes on this site with the ridiculous faint gray type (thank you, whoever told me how to make the type larger) but those were just careless. And in a discussion about grammar and usage?! Go and sin no more!

Calling Planet Bobaloo: No, the LW does not "need to tell us" anything. She didn't write for our advice. We're just having fun pretending to be advice columnists. If she actually reads on this site, as some occasionally do, she might like the perspectives given, but that's a pretty rare occurrence. And really, MAKE Missy go to the wedding? WHY? Why would the presence of anyone so poisonous even be desirable? I guess on your planet, forcing a person like that to go to a wedding makes sense, but you NEED to explain it to me.

Mary Clark, thank you! I, too, cringe at the misuse of "I" and "me". And folks, for those few who don't know it, a little PSA of my own: the correct phrase is "between you and ME". If you don't know why, I'll be glad to explain.

When I was teaching, I found that my foreign exchange students' grammar was usually better than my American students'. That's because they had been taught the standard way from the beginning. People tend to speak the way they hear the language at home - which is why it's so hard to change a habit by the time the kids get to high school unless they are really motivated to change it. Didn't stop me from trying, though.

@Lise, hwer scule we win finden?

Hey Lise, I'm totally with you on the "could care less" teeth-grinder. At least as a teacher, I could freely correct the carelessness of my budding scholars. But I'm also here to sprinkle a little fairy-wisdom on you. You said "in spite of me getting started on it ..." To really split some grammatical hairs (why else did God give them to us?) it should be "in spite of MY getting started on it..." ("getting started " is the gerund phrase object of the preposition "of" - it takes the possessive "my", not the object "me." You're welcome. No charge.

Oh Mike, you take me back to some other life. I've told my students that if they could get in a time machine and be transported back to what is now England a thousand years ago, no one would understand them. The Venerable Bede might be able to figure it out - a little - but English as it is now would no doubt make his head spin.

RE: LW3 ~ Alcoholism is NOT A DISEASE!!!!! It's an addiction and no amount of clouding it over, with phrases like the "disease of addiction", will ever change that and most certainly will not help the alcoholic. This type of action only helps the alcoholic to justify his/her drunkenness. What's wrong with "calling a spade a spade?"

RE: LW3 ~ Alcoholism is NOT A DISEASE!!!!! It's an addiction and no amount of clouding it over, with phrases like the "disease of addiction", will ever change that and most certainly will not help the alcoholic. This type of action only helps the alcoholic to justify his/her drunkenness. What's wrong with "calling a spade a spade?"

Re: Maggie Lawrence (#28)

"Calling Planet Bobaloo: No, the LW does not "need to tell us" anything.

"And really, MAKE Missy go to the wedding? WHY? Why would the presence of anyone so poisonous even be desirable? I guess on your planet, forcing a person like that to go to a wedding makes sense, but you NEED to explain it to me."

What I said was, "If there was a way to MAKE Missy attend the wedding or else dire serious consequences, I would. Unfortunately, short of kidnapping her, there's little that can be done." I suggested this because it WOULD BE NICE TO SHOW SUPPORT FOR HER GRANDCHILD!!! In other words, there is absolutely zero sense taking out her anger on someone who has nothing to do with whatever she's angry at her parents or others in her family for. She (the grandchild) didn't do anything.

But, it WOULD be nice for Missy – if she's out there – to offer her perspective of things. Unfortunately, it's not likely to happen, so we can only guess whether her anger is over something trivial or there are dark secrets in this family. I don't have time to and I don't care to speculate today – I'll leave it at that.

I also said, if you read it correctly – yes, I know you did – that THERE MAY BE LITTLE THAT CAN BE DONE legally to compel her to go. I decided not to include some of those suggestions since I'd be really raked over the coals.

Maybe President Bush was right – we need more families like "The Waltons" ... or even, praytell, "The Simpsons."

I will agree with you completely on the points about foreign language students speaking better English than American students. Indeed, parents are our role models, and that includes how we speak. Unless you're an old English teacher who's taught proper English at home, you're not going to change how they speak, unfortunately.

I commend you for trying, however. Same goes for our golden supply of teachers who are still around after beginning their careers in the 1960s(!), and those ranks are shrinking.

I take it back, Maggie, I did say, "Unfortunately, short of kidnapping her, there's little that can be done." Still, same thing. (And no, I am not recommending kidnapping as a solution to making peace.) My mistake there.

There is a flip side to foreign students speaking better English than the Americans. When I was a student at the Universite de Haute Bretagne, I was probably the only American there who was not a French major. (This was not an organized trip abroad program.) My verb conjugation was not always up to the other American's standards. The result -- the locals could always tell an American as soon as they opened their mouth because of their stilted manner of speaking, except, with my lesser knowledge of the grammar, I blended right in. They knew I wasn't local, but NEVER pegged me as American. I would intentionally throw in some Belgian terms, such as septant (soixante-dix), to miscue their reaction.

I believe that when engaged in conversation it is sometimes better to go with the lingo, but it's unfortunate that so many people have never learned what is correct, and so they cannot choose which words to use.

LW1 -- Would I like to know what on earth Aunt Martha did? Sure, but at the end of the day, I don't think it really matters. It MIGHT matter if the Missy's children and/or husband do not know what it is. I think it's telling that Missy's children, knowing what would happen if they chose to be in contact with their Aunt Martha, basically chose Aunt Martha over their own mother (and their father, really, too). These are adult children. Depending on how old they were whenever what it is that happened, they may well know exactly what happened and have decided their mother is wrong. And there is a difference between a husband who chooses to no longer be in contact with a sister because of something the sister did that upset his wife, and a wife who FORCES her husband to no longer be in contact with his sister. In the one case, it's a husband who is choosing to support his wife because he believes she was grievously wronged. In the other case, it's a husband who is being controlled by his wife. From the way the LW words this, it sounds like the latter. Sorry, but that sounds like controlling behavior at best, toxic and abusive at worst. So, what do we think the odds are that the adult children have chosen Aunt Martha over their own parents is because Missy is toxic? I'm thinking the odds are pretty good.
LW -- if you're up for losing a friend, tell Missy you are concerned she's going to lose her children permanently. Frankly, if she's as toxic as I'm betting she is, you'll actually be better off once she's chosen to cut your off, as well. Hedge's wording is perfect.

@Maggie, exactly. In fact, English as it was spoken 100 years ago would still be incomprehensible to someone in England 1,000 - 1,200 years ago.

We're *all* speaking a shockingly bastardized version of "English" compared to the "good old days". Grammar high horses notwithstanding. ;-)

Re: Bobaloo #16

"Missy, you need to tell us what Aunt Martha did that was so wrong. Doesn't matter if it was steal a dollar bill or steal "your man" to allowing sexual abuse to your children ... she needs to speak up, whatever the cause is. Even if Aunt Martha "knows," it sure would clear the air."

Child abuse? I'll bet it was something involving cookies. Or hairpins.

Holy Cats Mike H., I thought Lolley was back!!

LW1: I'm finding there are toxic people everywhere. The best way I have found to deal with them is to be as nice as possible from as far away as possible.

I really wish the letter writer would post the skinny about Missy and Martha on the BTL here. Not because I can add to it, I just want to know because I'm nosy.

And if might reassure me that I'm just being whiny about my own situation, being that I'm the lone conservative in a family of opinionated liberal bullies.

If the Letter writer doesn't post the whole kit and kaboodle by noon (pst), well, I'm just going to have to make one up. Or maybe Lolley or Bitey Fish could? JoannaKathryn is an English professor, maybe she could assign her students to write the details of Missy and Martha.

It's Monday, let's have some fun!!

Too cool! The banner ad at the top of my page is hawking trips to "The Outer Banks for 2012." I couldn't go last year, but I can go back for a do-over. Maybe I can also purchase a French Alps hiking excursion for some year back when my knees were in better shape.

RE: LW1

Another sexist, hateful response by the two bigoted fatties who run this column.

Note how they called Missy's husband “spineless” for not standing up to her and maintaining a relationship with his own sister.

However, when it is a husband who controls a wife on here, I never see the Annies refer to her as “spineless.” Instead, they criticize the husband (and rightfully so).

Why the double standard fatties?

@Lisa: I can't help, but feel when someone's rage and bitterness is as blinding as Missy's, that Aunt Martha probably really didn't do anything. She probably made a comment 40 years ago that I just feel if she had really done something awful (stole, abused Missy's husband or children, killed their dog, etc.) she would be telling EVERY family member about it. She's not giving any reason, because there probably isn't one. She's letting her bitterness guide her life and it's incredibly sad. She's going to die a bitter, lonely woman, and she'll never have the perspective to see that *she's* the problem. Missy is still mad about. Missy's letting her anger destroy her and her relationships. It's so sad. What's the Carrie Fischer quote? Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

@Carla #38: Exactly :)

Whoa. Didn't finish my thought in post #42. I meant to say "She probably made a comment 40 years ago that made Missy mad and she's still simmering over it."
My bad :)

@Lise,
I'm totally with you on "I could care less", but I'd like to add to that one, "it's the same difference"! ARGH

It's not so much the lack of education, it's the lack of intelligence. And I realize I am not perfect or brilliant. Frequently, auto correct has been screwing with me.

I worked with a woman who grew up extremely poor and without much education. She had a genuinely kind heart but not a lick of common sense. I applauded her ability to get a college degree, she stuck with it. The only problem with her was that she a had a sophisticated vocabulary that she used with her uneducated grammar and any attempts to correct her grammar was met with hurt feelings, crushed self-esteem and silence for days. It also didn't help that she only had two volumes, she either spoke so softly you couldn't hear her or she was jubilantly yelling and the whole 4th floor of the building could hear her.

When I was a teenager, we moved from the posh suburbs Washington, DC to the boondocks in Washington state. Some of the kids I went to school with were descended from the Tarheels from the hollers in North Carolina. I was familiar with their history and respectful of them. I didn't make fun of their hair styles, clothes, food or homes, and I certainly didn't say
anything about their way of speaking. I remember one of my friends saying, "I seen them all day yesterday and got nothing good to speak of them". I said nothing and just continued with my way of speaking, which is the way my family spoke, and coming from college educated parents and grandparents that were teachers and actors, I was pretty good. But my Tarheel friends thought I was the most pompous and hoity-toity thang they ever done seen.

My last peeve is when people say, "you guys" or call a man a guy. If he's older than you, even if he's dead drunk and his clothes are stuffed with newspapers, he is a GENTLEMAN. I was working in a small town department store and my manners could have been more professional. A salesman came in and asked to speak with the owner of the store so I called the office and told the owner, "Hey, Dave, there's a guy from Company La-tee-dah to see you".

I turned around and started helping another customer who gave me a cold stare and quietly hissed at me, "he is not a GUY, he is a GENTLEMAN!". I was hurt by her disgust with me. But I took those words to heart and they have not failed me. After that I also switched from saying, "yeah" or "no problem" to saying "certainly" and "your welcome".

Over the years I have worked with others who call women "girls" and men "dudes" or "guys". But I learned my lesson at seventeen and I can't go back. And I'm also teaching my daughter these things.

I meant to say "you're welcome". I said before I'm not perfect or brilliant.

Re: Maggie Lawrence #30
"in spite of MY getting started on it..."
You're absolutely correct, "me" used as a subject sounds Neanderthalish, not English. My bad. ;-D

(You're welcome to keep correcting me when you see me repeating a mistake... Only way of stopping is to learn better!)

@Mike H #29
YOU pass the jug.

People who use bad grammer should get theirselves in close proximity to a nucular bomb.

Re: Carla (#38)

"Child abuse? I'll bet it was something involving cookies. Or hairpins."

And that's just it – none of us knows without hearing the other side (i.e., Missy's side) of the story whether she has real reason to be angry or if it's because the other sisters got to play with the dolls longer than she did, or her T-shirts weren't as good as the tye-dyed models her sisters got to wear.

Even with her anger as it is, there's younger, completely innocent folks out there who are suffering from Missy's wrath of whatever it is, and they don't deserve it.

@Chelle, I was just writing in proper English -- not the substandard dreck that we see here everyday!

It drives me crazy that nobody knows how to write or speak English correctly any more... ;-)

Bobaloo wrote: And that's just it – none of us knows without hearing the other side (i.e., Missy's side) of the story whether she has real reason to be angry or if it's because the other sisters got to play with the dolls longer than she did, or her T-shirts weren't as good as the tye-dyed models her sisters got to wear.
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Bobaloo, repeat after me: "It doesn't matter. Whatever Martha did, ultimately it DOESN'T MATTER." Because Missy has no right to ask family members to perpetuate the feud on her behalf. [Also, this is not Missy's sister. It's her husband's sister.]

I think we all want to believe that the people who love us see a situation as we do, and take our side out of loyalty.

Missy's mistake comes in believing that she is entitled to ask those who love her to react exactly as she does, even though they may not have been present to witness Martha's crimes ["back before you were born, Martha shot my dog"] or even if they believe that Missy goaded or provoked Martha.

Missy is dictating that HER hurt and HER choice to cut Martha out outweighs everyone else's good relationship with Martha.

Missy can share with her family WHY she believes Martha is toxic enough to cut out. They may agree with her and cut Martha out — this is important — of their own volition. But dictating to them that they may not associate with Martha if they want to maintain a relationship with their mother [or if they want their mother to maintain a grandmother's role in their kids' lives -- wow!] is wrong, no matter what Martha did.

And Missy is the one who will ultimately pay the steepest price for that egocentric pigheadedness.

Re: Chelle--Am I hearing my name used in vain?

I haven't taught in several years now, but I think teaching high school and college freshmen made me rather numb to poor grammar. I used to joke about grading spelling tests. I'd grade the first few without the key, but by the time I graded a few, I had to have the key because I'd seen words misspelled so many times.

I, too, hate it when people substitute "I" when "me" is correct. I worked with a woman who actually wrote a note, using "to he." She thought using "him" made her sound unsophisticated, I guess.

I used to encourage my students to write clearly and simply, using short words rather than digging up a longer, obscure one. I had a student write about telling her parents something they didn't want to hear while they were driving. I'll never forget what she wrote, "My father became 'sessile' in the front seat." I was holding the paper upside down and sideways, trying to figure out what she meant. (To become stiff and rigid, like a plant, so I guess her dad turned into a dieffenbachia in the front seat.)

I also had students tell me that when they did use simple words, their high school teachers would mark it out and put a longer one with the same meaning.

I'm reminded of the Dilbert where the pointy-haired boss tells him, "Change 'do' to 'facilitate' and 'use' to utilize." Dilbert does so and the boss says it's still too readable, so Dilbert offers to reduce the type size and run it through the fax.

I've notice that people have practically stopped using "lie" (to recline) and mostly use "lay." In casual conversation, I probably do, too, but never in writing.

My nails-on-the-chalkboard word is "signage." It means signs, so why add another syllable?

I think everyone can be excused for making a grammatical mistake occasionally in conversation. Our words tumble out before we can edit them.

Back to the LW--I had an aunt like Missy. At my grandmother's funeral, she told her 3 kids that if they spoke to any of her family (us) she'd never speak to them again. At family get-togethers, we needed a chart to keep track of who was speaking to whom.

At her funeral, the preacher talked about how sweet Miss Lil was and how much everyone was going to miss her, and told us it was okay to cry. I looked at my cousin sitting next to me and said, "I'm good." Nobody was crying, not even her kids and grandkids.

My grammar is not the best when I post on here but it is pretty good when it has to be.... thanks to grammar check.

Mike - I'm with Chelle (#39) in that your post looked like Lolley stole your name to post.

Bobaloo #16, Missy did NOT write in, her friend did. Missy did not ask for advice and Missy does not want any help. It is a compete waste of time to offer any advice to Missy. We can only offer advice to people who ask for it.
LW 2 People who use poor grammar show their lack of intelligence. It is a quick way to find out who I want to spend time with, in person or on TV.

Ah, JoannaKathryn! A woman after my heart! Re: the lie/lay reference, I think you're right that so few people actually know how to use them correctly that they just speak and assume they'll be forgiven. And they are, mostly. But students have to understand transitive verbs to keep them straight - and it turns out they'd never (or so they said!) heard of "transitive verbs." And they're not that hard! We use them all the time! Okay. I'll calm down. But I want my tombstone to read: At least she knew her "lays" from her "lies."

Oh, now is the perfect time to share my own "other" teeth-grinder - one that used to show up all the time on this site by a person who used to post all the time on this site and I never corrected her because she'd just get snitty.
"Anyways" NONONONO! That's the hillbilly version of "anyway" which is why all the talk about judges and lawyers and Important People I'm Friends With just made me kind of laugh. I'm still laughing.

Re: hedgehog (#52)

Yes, IT DOES MATTER!!! It really does.

It matters to Martha or any of the other innocent victims here. It matters to restore some family sanity here and get some order here. That's all that matters!!!!

Don't you see – there are innocent people who are being hurt by this feud, no matter who is at fault here. It's time to settle it once and for all and to demand some concessions here from the person who started this bullshit.

I really can't understand why some of you beat up on me every time I try to mediate a family dispute here, whether this one or any of the several dozen others that I've tried weighing in on. Whatever the hell happened to compromise and forgetting trivial feuds and disputes here? Really – because I'm wondering if that's all this spat in today's letter is about – something that happened 40 years ago where someone was given 31 cents for their allowance and the other kid was given 30 cents. So what? So what the F- what????!!!!!!?????? Life's unfair, grow up and deal with it and go sulk in the corner.

OK, now that's off my chest, the reason I said maybe the reason some of these people involved in this feud/non-speaking situation/whatever have to speak up is so that things get out into the open, we can find out why people aren't being allowed to talk to one another and then settle it and make peace and bury the hatchet forever. I don't think that's too much to ask, is it?

I mean, is it? That's good advice and if you don't see it that way, then you know what you can kiss – and that goes for everyone.

locake (#16) – Yes, I realize Missy did not write in. Someone else did. However, perhaps it is Missy who needs to be given the advice whether she wants it or not. It's up to her to act. All we can do at this time is tell the person writing in what advice to pass on to Missy and be done with it and so be it.

Re: hedgehog (#52)

Yes, IT DOES MATTER!!! It really does.

It matters to Martha or any of the other innocent victims here. It matters to restore some family sanity here and get some order here. That's all that matters!!!!

Don't you see – there are innocent people who are being hurt by this feud, no matter who is at fault here. It's time to settle it once and for all and to demand some concessions here from the person who started this bullshit.

I really can't understand why some of you beat up on me every time I try to mediate a family dispute here, whether this one or any of the several dozen others that I've tried weighing in on. Whatever the hell happened to compromise and forgetting trivial feuds and disputes here? Really – because I'm wondering if that's all this spat in today's letter is about – something that happened 40 years ago where someone was given 31 cents for their allowance and the other kid was given 30 cents. So what? So what the F- what????!!!!!!?????? Life's unfair, grow up and deal with it and go sulk in the corner.

OK, now that's off my chest, the reason I said maybe the reason some of these people involved in this feud/non-speaking situation/whatever have to speak up is so that things get out into the open, we can find out why people aren't being allowed to talk to one another and then settle it and make peace and bury the hatchet forever. I don't think that's too much to ask, is it?

I mean, is it? That's good advice and if you don't see it that way, then you know what you can kiss – and that goes for everyone.

locake (#16) – Yes, I realize Missy did not write in. Someone else did. However, perhaps it is Missy who needs to be given the advice whether she wants it or not. It's up to her to act. All we can do at this time is tell the person writing in what advice to pass on to Missy and be done with it and so be it.

Joannakathryn, I would never use your name in vain. Ever. I was remembering that you are a writer and have a colorful family with lots of cantankerous old women. You could come up with something to fill in the holes of the saga between Missy and Martha.

And locake, you're right. Missy's friend wrote in and Missy is the last person who would ask for advice, take advice and learn from her mistakes.

So to have a little more fun with someone who doesn't want to be fixed, here is the back story.

Back when the railroad came to their small town in the middle of nowhere, two little girls lived across the highway from each other. Missy had sassy red hair and a lazy eye. Martha was bubbly blonde with a club foot. The two little girls were like peas in a pod.

Both girls had older brothers and the girls decided they would each marry the other's brother. Missy's brother Gomer wasn't thrilled with the idea of marrying Martha, but she hot to trot so he thought he'd take a shot. For the wedding, Missy found her great-grandmothers china and wrapped it up as a gift to the newlyweds. But by the time Martha unwrapped all the presents, it was more than a month after the wedding and besides, the china was all broke and used anyway, so Martha didn't think to write a thank-you note.

Then it was time for Missy to marry Martha's brother. Now Missy was in luck because Martha's older brother was handsome, smart and studying to be a mortician. But Martha accidentally left a cabinet door open and her brother Delmer banged his head on it and then never spoke another word again. So Martha asked her younger brother Goober if he would marry Missy.
Martha and her mother put together a scrumptious picnic that was kosher, vegan and macrobiotic. The two families sat down together and Martha's younger brothers and sisters dug right in and used their fingers to eat, smacking their lips and chewing with their mouths open. Martha's mother beamed at them and their healthy appetites.

Missy sat next to Goober during the picnic and noticed right away that whenever Goober took a bite of food and swallowed, his throat made a funny clicking sound. She decided to overlook it because he'd had polio as a small child and he was the only one of Martha's six brothers that had all his teeth and and could talk.

Goober stood up during the picnic and stomped his foot several times to get everyone's attention and he looked Martha right in her good eye and proposed. Just then, Missy's great-grandmother dropped dead from heat exhaustion. Her funeral was the next day. While packing up, Martha's family took home all the leftovers and didn't off any to Missy's family.
At the funeral, Goober decided to impress Missy and brought his camera to the service and took hundreds of photos of Missy's great-grandmother in her coffin.

Missy was so mad a Goober she broke things off right then with Goober and eloped with Martha's twin brother Poot, who later ran off to join the circus and be with his true love, Steve. Who was Missy's younger brother. Apparently, Martha was aware of the love affair between Steve and Poot, but never said a word to Missy.

So Missy found another man who could read, write, speak and had all his teeth. But the man left every cupboard door, drawers, and windows wide open. He never put the toilet seat down, put rolls of toilet paper under, and his throat clicked whenever he smoked and he slurped his coffee. They had five children and scraped by.

Martha and Gomer had ten children who all went to college on scholarship to become doctors, who all paid for the surgery to fix their mother's foot. Not that they'd needed scholarships because right after they'd won the lottery, oil was discovered on their land. Land that Missy's let her brother Gomer have her part of. Oh and Missy chose the numbers for the lottery ticket that won, but hadn't given Martha the dollar for the ticket, and Martha found out it was winner before Missy had paid her, so the court ruled in Martha's favor. Missy was also sure that Martha slept with the Judge and both attorneys.

When Missy and Gomer's mother died, Martha took photos of her in her coffin to post on her facebook page. When Missy's checked Martha's facebook page later that day, she found the photos of her mother in her coffin. She fumed because she knew that Martha had purposely taken the photos from her mother's bad side, the one that showed the huge mole with hairs on her chin. Then Martha posted the news that Missy's father had passed away as well, he was found in a closet with Martha's brother Goober.

Martha and Gomer threw a huge destination second wedding to celebrate and Missy was supposed to be the Maid of Honor, but her lazy eye and stupid husband made her miss the wedding. And ever since then, Missy has hated Martha.

Damn, Bobaloo. Calm down.

I'd rather hear "I seen" from someone who has actually seen something than "I saw" from somebody who ain't seen nothing. - Laxton Malcom

oh yes, and Martha named her children using all the names Missy had wanted to use. Missy was stuck naming her five girls, Irene, Diana, Princess Bride, Bloom Hilda, and Lolley.

Re: Chelle (#62)

Now that's the funniest post I've read all day! :)

@Bobaloo -- no, it really does not matter. Here's the thing: in all likelihood, the adult children in this case are well aware of what happened, and as Casey, Carla and others have noted, it's as likely to be something as silly as eating the last black jelly bean one Easter 30 years ago as it is to be something truly worthy of a family feud (like abusing the children). As hedgehog (I think it was hedgehog!) suggested, we all of us hope that our loved ones will see things the same way we do, and we hope that they will come to our defense when we are wronged. But sometimes they don't -- most commonly when we are the ones who are in the wrong. As I said earlier, I think it is telling that Missy's adult children (all five of them, mind you), have chosen to remain in contact with their Aunt Martha, even though they know it means their mother will cut them off (and, apparently, the father will be cut off from them as well, by virtue of Missy's controlling behavior). And, as an interesting aside -- note that she has, apparently, cut four of the five off, but for some reason remains close to the fifth even though the fifth has committed the same "sin" as the other four -- you kind of have to wonder about that, but I digress.

Now, it's possible that something truly horrible happened and the kids don't know about it, and maybe if they did, they wouldn't be choosing their aunt over their own mother (which is basically what they have done). If that's the case, then it's high time Missy came clean to her family about what happened. But again, we are talking about ADULT children here. It's likely that they know exactly what happened and believe their mother is in the wrong or that her reaction to it is all out of proportion to what happened -- and potentially, if this is all part of her typical MO, then after a lifetime of living with her toxic, controlling behavior, they have decided to break free of that.

As for attempting to mediate a family dispute here at the BTL. Look, it's one thing when the person writing in is actually a member of the family and/or part of the dispute -- at least then you MIGHT have a shot in hell at reaching someone with your advice. But here we have a case of a friend writing in for advice about how (and whether) to try to mediate a dispute she is seeing (from afar, as it were) her friend engage in with her family. Your advice, therefore, ought to go to the person who actually sought advice (who, quite frankly, likely isn't even reading the BTL anyway). If you want to rant and rave at Missy, knock yourself out, but Missy didn't ask for advice, probably doesn't even realize that letter is about her (even assuming she ever reads the Annies) and also likely isn't reading the BTL anyway. So, yeah, does Missy need some advice? Absolutely! But since we're not even hearing Missy's side of the story from Missy, and since Missy is almost certainly not reading any of this, and since Missy probably doesn't think she's the one who needs advice (no doubt, she thinks her adult children are the ones who need advice), it's a waste of time to be offering it. It's hard enough to get someone who is actually ASKING for advice to take advice, much less someone who is wholly uninterested in it.

And unfortunately, yes, asking it IS too much to ask Missy (or anyone else involved in the dispute) to speak up so that things get out in the open because 1) they're probably not even reading this; 2) you're assuming no one has ever talked about this and that the people involved don't know what happened. What you want is to have all the facts at your disposal so that you can have a full understanding of the situation -- who can blame you? Me, too! But it's rare that we ever get all the facts, and no amount of wishing for them, asking for them, demanding them is going to make them forthcoming.

And this last part isn't just to you -- I think several people at the BTL have been a little confused about who is who in this sordid little story. The LW is just a friend of Missy's. Missy's dispute is with her sister-in-law, not her sister. Aunt Martha is is the sister of Missy's husband (so, highly unlikely Martha stole Missy's husband since that would be incestuous and, more importantly, Missy appears to still be married to her husband, and highly unlikely this has to do with one kid getting more allowance than another, since Missy and Martha do not have the same parents).

Lisa (#64)

So what do you think I've been suggesting was the root of this all day? Remember, I SUGGESTED that the feud could be rooted in petty matters, such as whether someone got to watch "My Little Pony" today and not let sis watch her tape of "Days of Our Lives." And you think I'm suggesting nonsene! Amazing!

ARRRGGGHHH!!!!

Someone then needs to get the message to this family, then.

If the LW is reading this, please, for the love of God, do so. I know you'd be a buttinski and risk losing friends, but somewhere there needs to be something done with this family.

Sorry, that's how I feel, everyone. (And FWIW, Lisa, I do have some of who's who confused. Oh well, my opinion don't carry no weight here anyway.)

BTW – As I type this, there has been tragedy in Boston, with news reports of explosions of some sort occurring happening during the Boston Marathon. Two dead, two dozen hurt. So sad that this happened and now this sort of thing is happening in (other) everyday facets of our lives. Please pray for the victims and everyone else touched by this horrible event.

@Maggie #56,

In addition to all the teeth-grinders so far, how about another word by "the person who shall not be named"?

definately (I can't even stand to look at this word as I am typing this)


Darn, BTL has been so pleasant the last couple of weeks!

@Lise,

I am also sensitive about linguistics and proper use of grammar, and like you, I started speaking English in my adulthood.

And anyone, before you start in on my grammar, yes, I did see the double negative – "Oh well, my opinion don't carry no weight here anyway" – in my post #65.

Damn, I wish my browser had a back button to edit.

Re: Casey (#42)

Actually, bitterness and resentment have not been the things I was thinking of today behind what could be fueling Missy's behavior. That said, if this is true – that everyone else in her life is successful and all she can do is stew in her own resentment – then she is taking the wrong, wrong approach.

Instead of growing bitter and being jealous, you've got to carve out your own path in life and find what you're good at. Plain and simple.

That's IF this is true, now, keep in mind.

Re: Chelle--Your post made me laugh, and today we all need something to laugh about and forget what happened in Boston for a few seconds.

Thankfully, our Boston member is okay. He checked in on Delphi.

So what do you think I've been suggesting was the root of this all day? Remember, I SUGGESTED that the feud could be rooted in petty matters, such as whether someone got to watch "My Little Pony" today and not let sis watch her tape of "Days of Our Lives." And you think I'm suggesting nonsene! Amazing!
*********
Bobaloo, once again: Martha is Missy's HUSBAND'S sister. MIssy's sister-IN-LAW, not her sister. Which makes your speculation about childhood sibling spats all the more ridiculous. If you'd read my answer carefully,instead of hurrying to climb back up on your soapbox in indignation, you'd have seen that and saved yourself some grief.

But truly, as Lisa explained, it does not matter what Martha did.. I don't care how big or small it was: MISSY'S choice to cut those people out if they don't do EXACTLY as she says is more the threat to the family than whatever Martha did.

So we don't NEED to know Martha's fault. Much as we might like to know the specifics,they aren't relevant to the advice.

I really can't understand why some of you beat up on me every time I try to mediate a family dispute here, whether this one or any of the several dozen others that I've tried weighing in on.
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Maybe because if you want to dispense advice, you need to learn to read the letters carefully and respond accordingly.You have in this example alone forgotten who wrote the letter (hint: neither Missy nor Martha nor any member of the family); what is being asked (not to save the family, but to save a friendship: and repeatedly clung to the notion that this could be rooted in sibling rivalry, despite several people pointing out that Missy and Martha ARE NOT SISTERS but SISTERS-IN-LAW.

So your responses are rendered so far off base that they are not helpful.

Re: Lisa #36
"Would I like to know what on earth Aunt Martha did? Sure, but at the end of the day, I don't think it really matters."
Unless it's something so grievous that it affects the entire family , then it really is between Little Missy and Martha. Chances are even Martha doesn't know what the whole fracas is all about!

And if it IS that serious, methinks all members of the family would know about it and be in a position to make their own choices. The fact that they're choosing Aunt Martha is quite eloquent.

@Casey #42
"I can't help, but feel when someone's rage and bitterness is as blinding as Missy's, that Aunt Martha probably really didn't do anything. She probably made a comment 40 years ago that I just feel if she had really done something awful (stole, abused Missy's husband or children, killed their dog, etc.) she would be telling EVERY family member about it."
Hee hee, we have perfect examples even here BTL about how blindingly obsessed some people can get!

@Kitty #45
Oh yeah, and what about when someone consistently confuses "advice" and "advise"? I'm not talking about someone occasionally screwing up and writing 'there' instead of 'their' - we've all done that at least once, even though we know the difference, and then gone AAAAARGH because there is no edit button here.

@Bobaloo #57
"However, perhaps it is Missy who needs to be given the advice whether she wants it or not. It's up to her to act."
You keep forgetting that whenever anyone tells Little Missy something she direly needs to hear but doesn't wanna know, there is hell to pay, usually involving a sharp pair of scissors.

@Chelle #59 & 62
ROTFLMAO! (Pass the paper towels, please)

@IrinaK #66
Yeah, and isn't it interesting that our little Lord Voldemort here claimed to have taught English in Japan... ;-D

Re: Bobaloo
"Instead of growing bitter and being jealous, you've got to carve out your own path in life and find what you're good at."
And even if you can't seem to make anything happen in spite of your best efforts, being bitter towards someone else doesn't change anything, except for the worse. Bitterness is a poisoned draught that people inflict on themselves willingly.

Thanks, irinaK. I'd almost forgotten about that dreaded "definately" (uck! My fingers cramp as I type it) but that was definitely one of the teeth-grinders.

"Anyways" Bobaloo - you shouldn't have corrected your double negative. I thought you did it on purpose just to be funny and a touch ironic, and now you say no. I'm deflated.

But really, as one of your favorite critics, I want to say that I think you're getting way too wound up in these LW's lives and problems. This forum is for amusement and sometime it actually helps, but that's all. You seem to get all up in it like it's really our business and SOMEbody NEEDS to let these people know, etc. etc. Life's easier if you do, indeed, calm down.

Re: Maggie Lawrence

I have posted using "anyways" on more than a few occasions. If I am the one you are referring to as being snitty, I apologize, I really do. I f I'm not, carry on. I don't like her much either, I just can't stand it when people sink to her level.


And Joannakathryn, Thank you for letting everyone know our Boston boy is safe. My heart goes out to anyone affected by the bombing. My mom used to run marathons and the end was such an event for people running the race as well as those watching, what a despicable thing to have done. There is a special room in Hell for people who do things like this.

ic nyle witen be eow, ac ic eom giet gram be thy maere agalan wrixlan betwix 1350-1700.

Translation from old english: I don't know about you all, but I am still angry about the great vowel (sound) shift (change) between 1350 and 1700.

In some ways I wish there were "I agree!" Buttons or " I love it"

"Anyways" isn't as wrong as you think it is. It's a dialectical variant of the more-or-less obsolete "anywise." And it's been in use for hundreds of years.

Maggie (#74)

"This forum is for amusement and sometime it actually helps, but that's all."

Unless there's a grammar rule I don't know about ... it's "sometimes."

And, "I thought you did it on purpose just to be funny and a touch ironic, ..." that's "a touch of irony." Although you are correct, I did do it so that I could correct myself. (Again, I wish I had the "edit this post" button on here, but Creator's says no. Oh well ... .)

That said, I wasn't wound up today at all, until everyone started beating me up. OK, so what if I was wrong on the relationship between Missy and Martha ... I don't really give a damn! My point being is they need counseling and that's it. I don't care if it's in the LW's place to recommend it.

And that, my friends, is not off-base to suggest. That's what's the problem here.

In other words, what the Annie's said. Case closed!

And hedgehog, if she wants to save the friendship ... forget it. It's on its way out, I'm afraid. All she can do is steer clear of Missy. (There – satisfied?) But I'm going to tell everyone on here right now – if there's another "family problem"-type letter on here again in the future – God, I hope its awhile, but somehow I fear not – Bobaloo the Family Counselor is going to weigh in again with the same advice. (And yes, you read that correctly.)

And Lise, she can put away the scissors. She's not the crazed little girl as we hear about in Miranda Lambert's new song "Mama's Broken Heart" who shoddily cuts her hair in a fit of rage (at least I hope not). If you ask me, that's as creepy and psychotic of a song as I've ever heard. Brad Paisley has NOTHING on her! ;)

(And yes, Maggie, I KNOW you've heard of Miranda Lambert and Brad Paisley. So don't start with the "Never heard of them" thing like you did Loretta Lynn.)

Addendum to my post #79

"I thought you did it on purpose just to be funny and a touch ironic, ..."

That's "add a touch of irony." (Or "be a touch ironic.")

Looks like we BOTH need "edit this post" buttons, no? :)

Re: wyn667: Ha-ha-ha!!! I'd like to see anyone who thinks language isn't fluid catapulted back a few centuries, or even a few decades.

Or heaven help them, forward a few decades or centuries!

And hedgehog, if she wants to save the friendship ... forget it. It's on its way out, I'm afraid. All she can do is steer clear of Missy. (There – satisfied?)
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Why is the friendship on the way out? LW is wondering if there's something she can say to help MIssy without jeopardizing the friendship. LW has not said anything yet, and apparently Missy hasn't slammed the door on LW because she attended an event at which Martha was present.

Anyway, I think it's a question of LW deciding which she thinks is the worse outcome: not saying anything for fear that MIssy will turn on her, or saying something out of concern that her friend is going to lose her entire family, as hedge suggested at #23, knowing that she might anger her friend but feeling that it's the responsible thing to do FOR HER FRIEND.

BTW, full disclosure: hedge is me. I don't know why my other computer signed me in that way this morning.

A lot of interesting takes on the Missy vs. Aunt Martha siuation. Under normal circumstances, Hedge's quite of Carolyn Hax should work - it's very good, but I don't think Missy is a normal person. Also, Post #73 was great.

From the letter, Missy and Aunt Martha are anywhere between 55 and 70 years of age, so they're not kids. What's obvious from the letter is that Missy is an uber control freak. She has staked so much of herself into hating Martha for so long a time that she cannot change. Most important, I do not believe for a minute that Martha did anything wrong. If she had, then everyone would know about it. If pressed, Missy is likely to claim that Martha KNOWS what it is. Missy is using the uncertainty to maintain power over the situation, since she is the only one who really "knows", which is easy when it's all in her head.

What is really sad is that Missy's husband has wasted his life catering to a sicko. People like Missy need constant reassurance that what they're doing is justified. This is what he's doing for her, and at this point, he doesn't know to do anything else. He feels he owes his life to her and the power under which she holds him cannot be overstated.

The LW states that Missy needs professional help, which is true, but the way Missy sees it is that everybody else has the problem and she is just fine, thank you. Professional help would do Missy no good. The one who would benefit is Missy's husband because he needs to find his voice, spine and gonads. Unfortunately, that won't happen because once Missy refuses to allow it, it's over.

Unless the LW wants to end the friendship, she should just contunue to support Missy and be a "Yes" person like Missy's husband. Any inkling that the LW is less than 100 percent on Missy's side will be seen as a betrayal. The best thing to so would be to stay away and let the friendship fade away. Among other things, I believe Missy is an accomplished and compulsive liar.

Re: hedgehog (#83)

Then I'll tell you something -- because if Missy is the psychopath she is made out to be, then there IS nothing that can be said that will save the friendship. NOTHING! Because that's how some people are -- you can approach something as gently as possible, but it matters not because the most benign way of approaching this is met with "F-you, bitch! Get the f-out of my life!"

I think JustWInBaby (#84) after you suggests the very thing that is so probably true in her own family (and, sigh, the in-laws) -- you're either with me all the way, or completely against me. There's no 99.9999999999999999 percent of one and 0.00000000000000001 of the other -- it's black and white.

Why the friendship is doomed, IMO.

Then I'll tell you something -- because if Missy is the psychopath she is made out to be, then there IS nothing that can be said that will save the friendship. NOTHING!
*************
Um, you're not telling me anything I haven't said, Bobaloo. hedge said as much "No guarantees -- some people need to touch the stove to see it's hot" way, way, way back a at #23.

I don't know that MIssy is a psychopath, and in fact, I think it would be unusual that LW would have stayed her friend for years if she were, or that she would feel sorry for her or worry about losingher friendship. People are very, very rarely all good or all bad; most of us have both our good points and our blind spots.

I think it's much more likely that MIssy simply worked herself up, got caught up in her own emotional drama and that her ultimatum was issued as a last-ditch effort to keep her family playing by the rules she'd enforced while they were growing up. As the mom, she controlled the social calendar pretty much, and she was able to keep her husband from his sister pretty successfully.

But as her kids grew up, she no longer was able to dictate who they saw and who they didn't, and she worried Martha might turn them against her. So she lobbed out the most powerful grenade at her disposal--- "I won't be your mother anymore AND I won't be your kids' grandmother" -- without ever considering that they might call her bluff.

Now she's stuck in an untenable position, sustained for the moment by white-hot anger and, when that cools, stubborn pride. That wouldn't make her a psychopath; just someone who doesn't like it when others point out that she's being unreasonable and is inclined to drama.

Heaven knows, we see plenty of that right here BTL.

Re: hedgehog (#86)

"I don't know that MIssy is a psychopath, and in fact, I think it would be unusual that LW would have stayed her friend for years if she were, or that she would feel sorry for her or worry about losing her friendship. People are very, very rarely all good or all bad; most of us have both our good points and our blind spots. "

Well right now, I'm not seeing too much good in Missy. Whatever she got herself worked up about – even if it is because her team lost to Matilda's at the last family softball game because of a disputed fair ball call – it's not worth it. (BTW – until you began responding to my posts, I haven't seen any of your earlier posts, so I don't know what you've said earlier today.)

"Now she's stuck in an untenable position, sustained for the moment by white-hot anger and, when that cools, stubborn pride. That wouldn't make her a psychopath; just someone who doesn't like it when others point out that she's being unreasonable and is inclined to drama."

Well, if you're suggesting that I'm behind today's drama ... then believe me, that's very, VERY mild. Particularly compared to some of the letters Annie's and other advice columnists get (such as today's letter) – and some of the real-life drama we never read about. Which is, quite frankly, sad ... and perhaps scary.

That said, there's nothing wrong with stubborn pride ... so long as it's channeled correctly. Same goes with everything in life.

I don't think Missy's making smart or mature choices about her family's interactions with Martha. I think she's the one most likely to be hurt by those actions, though. You and I don't have to see good in Missy, but I rather suspect there's some there: LW likes her, has liked her for many years, and is concerned enough about her to write to see if there's anything she can do to help her good friend.

Bobaloo, I was tempted to reply to "if you're suggesting that I'm behind today's drama..." with "well,if the shoe fits..."

But that would imply that I was aiming that observation at you, and I was not. It was a general philosophical observation made after several years of noting the emotion and angst of many, many, many spats among a host of colorful characters, some of whom remain here, some who have left these parts.

Sorry to disappoint you!

No, Chelle, didn't mean you. It was "she who shall not be named."

Van Wickle, that's an interesting observation, but "anyway" also comes from anywise - and "anyways" is the archaic, nonstandard form. A literate person should know better.

Bobaloo, you're just hopeless. Do you think that I don't know the word "sometimes"? It was a typo. And no - it should NOT be "a touch of irony." I attributed two adjectives to you - "funny" and "ironic." Your "correction" made it incorrect - in fact, senseless.

But why do you say "case closed" and "I don't give a damn" when you just keep on arguing the point? None of them are likely to read here or care what we say. We're the only ones who care what we say.

Re: hedgehog (#88)

Ah, that's OK ... win some, lose some! Been there before.

After all, this board wouldn't be what it is without us colorful characters, right? :)

Have a good night. Onward ... with tomorrow!

Re: Maggie Lawrence (#89)

Whatever. (And also, whatever you said was lost on me.)

Look, did you REALLY have to say what you did in the first place even? Geez!

Anyway, see you tomorrow on the boards. Maybe tomorrow will go better after we all get a good night's sleep.

Re: Bobaloo #79
When I mentioned scissors, I meant she has a tendency to cut off people with whom she disagreees.

#85
I don't think anyone here is painting Missy as a psychopath, but she has revved up the hissy fits in an attempt to justify her dislike of Martha, and now she's a prisoner of her own drama: she's painted herself into a corner. Her tantrums and attempts at blackmail have backfired and the entire family is calling her bluff.

Is the relationship doomed? Well, it depends. If she can keep her trap shut, Missy will continue to view her as an ally, but the price is that Missy will see that as an endorsement - "Qui ne dit mot consent", whoever stays silent approves. I know I couldn't hack it, but that's me.

And on top of all the disregard for grammar lately, I have read that school districts are deciding that they no longer need to teach cursive writing. I agree that it is possible that we do not need to spend the hours we did when I was in a Catholic grade school in the sixties, perfecting our Palmer Method, I found it quite sad to get some solid evidence that, these days, even a proper signature is not required. I prepared my son's tax return for him, which is something he can certainly do himself, but April 15 has become one of those ritual nights when he just comes over.
For sheer convenience, it is pretty wonderful that I could process his return even if he were not there, but I like the idea of unique signatures for some old-fashioned reason.
Lise hit on one of my favorite pet peeves, speaking of grammar, with "I could care less." And it seems that so many articles contain statements like, "Lindsay's in jail again." I admit that I am not a grammar expert, but I know a little, and to me, "LIndsay's" means "belonging to Lindsay." You can create contractions with pronouns, like, "She's in jail." My English teacher sister talked about a gerund in this case, like, "Lindsay's leaving bothered us not at all."
I do that like everything, all things do change, and maybe English is a difficult language. You see so much in print these days where people don't know the difference between to, two and too. And especially your and you're.
Maybe it won't matter when we all become so hooked to our phones and texting devices that we evolve to huge-eyed creatures with teeny-tiny fingertips.

I don't think Missy necessarily has any good in her. She has just enough superficial charm to have been able to attract and keep a husband and maintain her friendship. The LW likely feels sorry for her. However, the rest of the family is onto her controlling ways and are coping the best they can.

Re: Carly O
*I*. and others, make the difference between to, two and too, and between there and their, because we've been taught. Therein lies the crux of the problem. And yes, English is a rich, wonderful, extremely adaptive language... and difficult. I've gotten people stinkingly mad at me when I said that (God knows why they would be so sensitive), to whom I answer it is because you barely know it enough to be fonctional (in other words, you only know it well enough to think you do), you do not REALLY know it. Start teaching it, and you will understand a little better when your students start asking questions you didn't even know existed.

There are words which spell the same but don't pronounce the same depending on the meaning (row = orderly sequence and row = noisy quarrel, bass = fish and bass - low voice); there are words which pronounce and spell the same but don't mean the same, depending on the context (bow = salute from the waist, front of a boat, tied with ribbons, shoots arrows); there are words which pronounce the same but don't spell the same (there and their).

And then there are words that are from the same family but don't spell the same (advise, verb, and advice, noun); there are words that are confused because they're close but don't mean the same thing (then & than, further & farther); there are possessives vs contractions (Diane is going = Diane's going, and Diane's ring = the ring belonging to Diane); there are words that are confused although they don't pronounce or spell the same (rout vs route)... And then there are the words that essentially have the same meaning, but are not used in the same place depending on the context: "speak" and "talk" are not always interchangeable.

And then there is spelling and phonetics... although, thought, through, proud, regional differences (potato, potato), the fact that the strain falls haphazerdly anywhere and with no predictable rules, and you can't even go by one word to figure out the rest of the family (IGnorant, igNOre, ignoRAmus) ...) Added to the little detail that you can make the occasional vowel prononciation mistake or put an "s" in the wrong place and you'll still be generally comprehensible, but put the strain in the wrong place and you're dead in the water. Wrong strain in French, German, Italian or Spanish, and you'll sound like a manual transmission with clutch problems, but people will basically get it. Not in English, which is why Trinidadians have so much trouble getting themselves understood the minute they leave their little island - they strain the French way, on the last pronounced syllable. It works when the strain would be there anyway, other times, not so much.

Add to this (and this is the trained singer speaking) that there is no such thing as a pure vowel in English, each and every vowel phonem is a diphtong, bar none. This will be especially difficult for people coming from languages where the vowel is pure. Italian having the purest vowels (which is why Italy is the cradle of opera and bel canto), Italians speaking English usually have quite an accent even when they speak it well.

And then there are the difficulties associated with past verb tenses. "They met", they have met", they had met, "they were meeting", they have been meeting" all have different meanings, and are not used the same way. A REAL puzzle for people whose language has two (spoken) past tenses only and no gerontive.

So yes, English is a very difficult language, and I have had to reassure people I've known who started learning it as adults, because they couldn't understand why they were meeting with such grave difficulties, and they thought they had suddenly turned into imbeciles. English is sweeping the world because (never mind politics) it is the most adaptable language on the planet. NOT because it is easy.

We should protect its richness and proudly make sure it's passed on to the next generation, instead of one by one eliminating elements of its teaching from the curriculum, until there are finally none left. At the rate things are going, I shudder to think what English will be like in 100 years. (Now, if someone gets me started on my complainst about French...)

I could scream when I see PROFESSIONAL TRANSLATORS who do not know that "start" can be a tense of "startle", and translate it as a tense of "begin", which then makes no sense at all of course. Whenever I hear "route" pronounced as "rout" on telly, it drives me up the wall, btw. And it's all the time. AAAAARGH!

I don't think Missy necessarily has any good in her. She has just enough superficial charm to have been able to attract and keep a husband and maintain her friendship. The LW likely feels sorry for her. However, the rest of the family is onto her controlling ways and are coping the best they can.
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An awful lot of speculation;.. and to what end? It's very difficult to accurately sketch the whole of a person based a friend's description of one aspect of her life. Even control freaks have people who love them.

We can say for sure, though, that whether Missy is a control freak overall or has just gone over the edge on the subject of Martha, Missy has raised kids who aren't afraid to stand up to her to do what they think is right.

A neighbor of my Neice brought this article to who attention and said I think this is about your family! Sure enough it is. To answer your questions, NO Aunt Martha did not do anything. Missy has never liked her. We did not choose between the two of them. If she found out any of us had talked to her, that was it. But her granddaughter had a beautiful wedding without her grandparents this weekend And there ages are between 70-80!!

Re: SteelerFan (#97)

Thanks for your insight and clearing up a LOT of things. Wish we had a lot more people like you around. (And BTW, welcome to this crazy place we call BTL, for Below the Line – please come again.)

So now it's official – Missy just is crazy.

Her loss for the wedding ... 'tis all I can say. Be the same with everything else the rest of her life ... and there aren't that many years left.

@SteelerFan -- Thanks for providing this info! Just one thing I want to note -- you may not feel as though you actively chose between them, but obviously Missy (your mother, I guess?) feels like you have. Because you DID choose to stay in contact with Aunt Martha despite knowing that Missy would cut you off if you did so. So, you chose to maintain a relationship with your aunt knowing that it could cost you your relationship with your mother. Nothing wrong with that (in fact, kudos to you, since it sounds like your aunt didn't deserve any of this), but that IS making a choice. But more importantly -- so glad to hear that the wedding went well, and I'm sorry that your family has had to deal with all of this strife so needlessly for so long!

My older sister was married to a man whose Mother was a minion of Satan. Of her four children, only one has maintained a marriage but has insisted for the last 30 years that he not be in contact with his family. One cannot work in society, he has to be on the fringes, working under the table, alcoholic drug abuser, living way way way off the grid, and buying cars with cash and changing the vins and license plates frequently. My sister's ex was the child that did everything perfectly and excelled at nearly everything, he is still a high achiever, but his meltdowns and affair with his administrative assistant put an end to my sisters' marriage.

My maternal grandmother probably has narcissistic personality disorder, most people around her have been in therapy or take antidepressants, not just because of the inherited depression, but from the craziness that takes over a person after spending time with her. She is that awful. Strangers insist that my Grandmother is the most charming and fun woman they have ever met, until they get to know her and then they scatter.

My neighbor across the street probably has a personality disorder of some kind but doctors could never get close enough to him to make sure exactly what was wrong with him. His mother drinks herself into oblivion most days so it's anyone's guess.

Everyone has met someone at some point who looks like a normal person, even charming and just a great guy or lady, but the family surrounding them just seem like zombies or weirdos. I was engaged to a jekyl and hyde type, he'd go to bed thinking I was the light of his life and then the next morning, he would act like I crapped in his bed, spent all his money and set his house on fire.

It's funny how people can function on a day to day basis, even maintain friendships, but in the end, the people who knew them best are sitting at the funeral with dry eyes and a peaceful, dreamy look on their face. Either that or they're bored and can't wait to go home and watch the game.

Re: SteelerFan
So Martha never did anything wrong, and Little Missy is just being a controlling witch. Thanks for clearing that up. Little Missy sounds like a bona fide narcissist. Welcome BTL, and thanks for chiming in!

Re: Carly O
"And it seems that so many articles contain statements like, "Lindsay's in jail again." I admit that I am not a grammar expert, but I know a little, and to me, "LIndsay's" means "belonging to Lindsay." You can create contractions with pronouns, like, "She's in jail.""
Carly, "Lindsay's" can mean "belonging to Lindsay" OR "Lindsay is." "Lindsay's in jail" is just as grammatically correct as "She's in jail." The contraction for is or has can be used with names and nouns as well as pronouns. I know my grammar well as I am a professional writer and editor.

Re: Carly O
"And it seems that so many articles contain statements like, "Lindsay's in jail again." I admit that I am not a grammar expert, but I know a little, and to me, "LIndsay's" means "belonging to Lindsay." You can create contractions with pronouns, like, "She's in jail.""
Carly, "Lindsay's" can mean "belonging to Lindsay" OR "Lindsay is." "Lindsay's in jail" is just as grammatically correct as "She's in jail." The contraction for is or has can be used with names and nouns as well as pronouns. I know my grammar well as I am a professional writer and editor.

Hedgehog! You make an excellent point. Missy raised four children who knew better than to act like their mother.

In the case of my Mom, her Mother probably has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and when my Mom was seven, she decided she would not be like her mother. She would do everything the opposite of what she thought her mother would do.

My Aunt J is wonderful and lives a full life. My Aunt C is haunted by phobias and has some anti-social tics to her, while being a wonderful person who I love, she has missed out on a lot that life has to offer because of the scars of being raised by a woman with NPD. My Aunt J and my Mom are a few years older than Aunt C, and left home when Aunt C was ten. By that time, their Mother had been getting worse in terms of her depression and general craziness.

It's possible for the worst parents on the planet to raise incredible human beings. Just like it's possible for great parents to have a monster emerge from their loins.

But kudos to Steeler Fans family, they keep on keepin' on.

LW1: Why are you friends with someone this crazy and hateful? Get some therapy and drop the viper.

LW2: The problem is stupidity is encouraged nowadays so everyone can feel special. Morons don't want to fix themselves so they would rather try to drag everyone down to their pathetic level. In 100 years we won't have flying cars we'll have knuckle draggers flinging crap at each other. Why? Because they're the ones who are breeding and over running the world. Yay.