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Don't Force a Child to Hug Relatives
Dear Annie: I have a question about forced touching. Let's say an 8-year-old doesn't want to hug her uncle or give Grandma a kiss. Do you force the kid to do it? Do you badger, threaten and make a fuss?
I'm wondering about this because if you tell your kid, "You have to give this person a hug" or "You have to shake their hand," aren't you teaching the kid that their body doesn't belong to them? If you force your kid to allow others to put their hands on your kid's body, how will they know when they shouldn't be touched at all?
I hear all these people coming forward to say they were molested as kids by uncles, grandparents and other relatives, and that they didn't say anything because they were taught that an adult could touch them at will. — New York
Dear New York: No child should be forced to hug, kiss or even touch another person, even a relative. You certainly can encourage or suggest that she "give Grandma a kiss goodbye," but nothing more than that. If the child balks, don't push or express displeasure. Leave it alone. Some kids are naturally reluctant to display that type of affection, and it has nothing to do with molestation. Kids who are forced to hug Aunt Jane, whose breath reeks and who tends to pinch their cheeks, will not be endearing her to them. And yes, kids who think they must permit adults to touch them are more likely to remain quiet if they are molested.
Dear Annie: My best friend of 30 years is a hoarder — not the "Buried Alive" type, but more the Need To Clean House type. "Rita" has not invited me over to her home in more than three years, while she has been to mine several times.
I want Rita to enjoy her house again and have offered on numerous occasions to help clean. She agrees that she needs it, but never follows through. What else can I do? I've thought of calling Rita's sister, who lives out of town, to advise her of the severity of the situation. However, I'm not sure the sister can get away to come, in which case my call would only upset her. And Rita wouldn't appreciate that I called her sister.
Last week, a mutual friend told me that the roof of Rita's house looks bad. She lives in the neighborhood and walks by every day. We can't figure out what to do. Any suggestions? — Want To Help
Dear Want: We suspect Rita is embarrassed by the condition of her house and doesn't want her friends to clean it. She also may be having financial difficulties, making repair work beyond her means. Could you get a group of friends together to hire a cleaning service? Tell Rita you know she hasn't had time to clean and you are worried about her. Say that you'd like to present her with the cleaning service as a gift. Ask her what day works best, and then set it up. However, there isn't much you can do if she absolutely refuses your assistance. An unkempt house is not cause for alarm, and if Rita is, in fact, hoarding, she'll need more help than you can provide.
Dear Annie: Like "Well Endowed in Kansas," my breasts were often the topic of conversation. After my second child was born, my chest ballooned to a size GG on my size-8 frame. Carrying around a 1-year-old and an infant in addition to my chest was unbearable. Enduring the leers and snide jokes from disgusting men and the backhanded comments from other women was demoralizing.
Breast reduction surgery changed my life. No more comments, conversations or back pain. I wear regular bathing suits and bras. It's liberating to feel and look like an appropriately proportioned woman. — "Breast" of Luck to You
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please email your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 737 3rd Street, Hermosa Beach, CA 90254. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
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Comments
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46 Comments | Post Comment
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LW1 - Don't make your kid touch anyone s/he doesn't want to touch, and defend him/her against others, including relatives, who think it is their right to touch the kid. You can teach them that handshaking is an appropriate gesture in many situations, even with people they don't know, but once again, they don't have to touch anyone or put up with anyone else's touch if they don't want to.
LW2 - I don't see any sign that Rita isn't enjoying her house. I see a lot of signs that you are not enjoying her house & are uncomfortable with the level of clutter, but that isn't the same thing at all. Try to imagine that she doesn't invite you over to her house, not because she is ashamed of her house, but because she doesn't want to hear another lecture from you. What can you do? You can mind your own business with respect to how clean & cluttered others choose to keep their houses. The roof repair is another matter, and that sounds like something you could check out for yourself or you could hire someone to look at it. After you have some information, you could talk to Rita about that & see if you can help with that.
Comment: #1
Posted by: kai archie
Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:09 PM
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* * * * PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT * * * *
LW3 refers to the second letter on 16 January 2013 (Too Well Endowed in Kansas), and was also discussed on 22 February 2013.
Comment: #2
Posted by: Miss Pasko
Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:11 PM
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LW1 -
"Let's say an 8-year-old doesn't want to hug her uncle or give Grandma a kiss. Do you force the kid to do it? Do you badger, threaten and make a fuss?"
NO.
"I'm wondering about this because if you tell your kid, "You have to give this person a hug" or "You have to shake their hand," aren't you teaching the kid that their body doesn't belong to them?"
YES.
What the Annies said.
LW2 -
"What else can I do? "
You can STOP MEDDLING AND MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
Rita is not obligated to live according to your tastes and standards of acceptability, you are not in charge of her life, and it is none of your business how many purple tops she owns. And now you want to involve her sister? I didn't know Rita was a minor. My oh my, but you're a busybody. Why don't you call the city inspector, the police, the FBI, the local cuckoo house? And it's to the point, in your misguided little head, that you'll write to an advice columnist, as if this was your problem to "solve"?
Is Rita incapable of throwing out anything? Is she a shopaholic or an compulsive garage saler? Does she buy 32 of the same item and then leave them brand new in the box and piled in a corner for the next couple of decades? Methinks not, since you specifically admit she is not the "buried alive" sort. Well guess what, Miss Control Freak: your friend doesn't automatically qualify as a hoarder because she owns more stuff than you yourself do, and because she DARES to live differently than you think she should. Bug off. Butt out. LEAVE HER ALONE.
She no longer invites you to her place? Gee, I wonder why. Lemme guess: because she's sick and tired of the derogatory comments, the "why don't you do this" and "why don't you do that", and being backed into a corner forced to defend herself as if she had to answer to you, and you won't shut up. Boy, do I know exactly how she feels.
I will give you a warning, and I sure hope you read BTL. Do NOT follow the Annies' asinine advice: put together an intervention-like posse and I can assure you your friend will never forgive you. You're already persona non grata in her house. Continue with the control trip and the nagging, and you'll end up personna non grata in her life.
P.S.: You and your friends have nothing better to do than to gossip about the condition of Rita's roof? Has it ever occured to you that she doesn't have the 20 grand it takes to fix it? You're welcome to set up a foundation if you care so much. Get a life!
LW3 -
I will repeat the information for those who might not have read it before: breast reduction surgery changed my life also. No more back pain, no more dent in my shoulder blade where the bra strap used to dig in, not more mission impossible to find clothing that fit and yet never looked good because I was too top-heavy, no more feeling like my boobs were going to rip out of my chest every time I had to run for the bus, no more crudity from Neanderthals.
It doesn't even hurt. What would hurt is done under total anasthaetic. You wake up feeling bruised, but nothing more. Tylenol was enough. I had it done on a Thursday and I was back at work the next Monday. Even with the post-operative odoema, I felt light as a bird with wings coming out of the hospital.
And, FREE BONUS! It is the same surgery as a breast lift, only they take out more tissue, and they also have to take out a minimum for it to be covered by insurance. As a fringe benefit, you get perky little boobs with their gravity clock set back at zero, woo-hoo!
And yeah, most insurance covers it because it is a procedure done for medical reasons, not cosmetic. If I had known, I would have had it done much sooner!
Comment: #3
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:14 PM
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I have a bunch of nieces and nephews now, and from the time they were babies, I happily accepted the voluntary hugs of the babies. But over time, you realize that every child is different, and parents do not have the right to demand that their babies display affection to anyone. We have two children in our family mildly on the autism scale, and I have had a hug or two from those children where the was no parent demanding it, and there is no feeling like it.
That said, no child should ever be forced to show affection they do not feel. When parents of these children tried to force the issue in gratitude, for example, for their Christmas or birthday presents, I would just touch their shoulder or tweak their nose and laugh and say, "you are welcome".
When the kids flew at me for hugs they wanted, I was all there. But not so much for forced affection. 75774
Comment: #4
Posted by: Carly O
Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:04 PM
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LW1: Yes, don't force the kids. I'm from a culture that hugs and kisses both cheeks in greeting. Some children hate it. With these kids, I cheerfully offer "air kisses." One cousin taught her daughter to hug with hips tilted back so she's not body-slammed against adults.
I do wish that the Japanese mini-bow were more widely adopted.
Comment: #5
Posted by: Claude
Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:44 AM
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LW1 - I agree with the Annies and the other posters that you shouldn't force children to show affection for anyone by hugging and kissing, relatives included, and NEVER insist on it or allow relatives to hug or touch the child if they don't want to be touched. Along with all the other reasons mentioned, it can cause the child to form an aversion or even a dislike for the person you're forcing on them. Also, with a very young child it may be difficult for them to recognize the difference between an appropriate touch and an inappropriate one, and therefore they might not report to the parents if "Funny Uncle Ralph" touches them in a way he shouldn't.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Kitty
Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:47 AM
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LW2 - What right does the LW have to tell her friend that she needs to clean her house?! No wonder Rita hasn't invited her to visit in years - I wouldn't either if my friend made comments about my housekeeping when she visited. The LW says she just wants Rita to "enjoy her house again". Well, how does she know that Rita DOESN'T enjoy her home? Ganging up on her with others to offer a cleaning service is insulting and could well end a 30-year friendship. As far as the roof goes, it's possible that Rita is financially strapped and can't afford the repairs. If that's the case, the LW can find a way to offer to help (without criticizing) but back off if Rita declines her offer. The bottom line is that the LW should find something else to occupy her time other than sticking her nose into things that are none of her business.
Comment: #7
Posted by: Kitty
Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:56 AM
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LW1 - I agree that children shouldn't be forced to show affection. I have a young niece and nephew and when I'm leaving, I will ask, "Can I have a hug and kiss goodbye?" My nephew is pretty affectionate and will almost always do it but my niece really isn't and most often says, "No," so I just say, "Okay. I'll see you soon. Love you, bye!"
LW2 - I'm with the others here who say to leave her alone. You didn't describe her as the kind you see on TV who have a mental illness and often become physically sick due to the hazardous stuff in their house. You just said her house needs a good cleaning. Well, if she wants to live a dirty house, then that's her business. She probably hasn't invited you over in a long time because you probably make comments about her dirty home. My exMIL's home was filthy...bugs includes. But I never said anything. If she wanted to live that way, that was her problem. I just refrained from going over there a lot. Stop criticizing her home. Let it be.
Comment: #8
Posted by: Michelle
Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:35 AM
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LW1, this seems pretty straightforward -- you and the Annies are right, children should NOT be forced to hug or kiss anyone if they are reluctant. If some relatives are offended, they should get over it. Sometimes children are just shy, or perhaps, as the Annies suggest, the adult in question is doing something like pinching cheeks or needs a breath mint.
LW2, I have to lean towards the "mind your own beeswax" camp again today. If the roof situation looks really bad, you might express concern... and you can certainly offer the cleaning service gift... but do realize that you may be coming off as overly judgmental and too intrusive here, and be very cautious if you want to maintain the friendship. It might be better to just say "listen, if you ever want help cleaning, or would like a gift of a cleaning service, let me know -- otherwise, I should probably stop harping on it before you get fed up with me!"
LW3, I'm sure your testimonial will be helpful to women in a similar quandary, and I'm glad it worked out well for you.
Comment: #9
Posted by: Mike H
Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:42 AM
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I had to create an acct just to respond to the posters bashing the woman for being concerned about her hoarding friend. BACK OFF! This woman could be talking about my mother. My mother is not a buried alive type hoarder. She's got severe anxiety and OCD and let's throw in some depression just for "fun". What you get is a person that knows she need to clean, but she can't even throw away the junk mail because she feels compelled to read it all. However that's too overwhelming, so she'll do it "later". Add a few day, more mail, can't clean because there's too much stuff, suddenly the house is dusty. After a few months the house is dirty. This is all very embarrassing, so she just stops having people over. It's a terrible cycle. Add to it the limited retirement budget and she can't even hire someone. Not that she would have anyone in the house because of her anxiety issues. She's a functioning citizen. She pays her bills, feeds/cleans herself, hasn't gotten lost (in my state the police have to be called TWICE to find her before they will note there may be an issue). I can't have her deemed "incompetent". I've checked. She passes every psych exam. If I try to force the issue, she can legally call the cops and have me arrested. She's threatened and she will follow through. At this point there are two options: she'll have a breakdown and there will be a major intervention or she'll be missed at church and they'll find her dead in her closet. Dear friend - please just keep an eye on her. Contact her children (if any)/sister. Let them know there's an issue. They know they can't force her to do anything, but they need to know if there's a change or something is drastically wrong. Thank you for being there when we can't.
Comment: #10
Posted by: Teresa Sipp
Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:44 AM
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I had to create an acct just to respond to the posters bashing the woman for being concerned about her hoarding friend. BACK OFF! This woman could be talking about my mother. My mother is not a buried alive type hoarder. She's got severe anxiety and OCD and let's throw in some depression just for "fun". What you get is a person that knows she need to clean, but she can't even throw away the junk mail because she feels compelled to read it all. However that's too overwhelming, so she'll do it "later". Add a few day, more mail, can't clean because there's too much stuff, suddenly the house is dusty. After a few months the house is dirty. This is all very embarrassing, so she just stops having people over. It's a terrible cycle. Add to it the limited retirement budget and she can't even hire someone. Not that she would have anyone in the house because of her anxiety issues. She's a function citizen. She pays her bills, feeds/cleans herself, hasn't gotten lost (in my state the police have to be called TWICE to find her before they will note there may be an issue). I can't have her deemed "incompetent". I've checked. She passes every psych exam. If I try to force the issue, she can legally call the cops and have me arrested. She's threatened and she will follow through. At this point there are two options: she'll have a breakdown and there will be a major intervention or she'll be missed at church and they'll find her dead in her closet. Dear friend - please just keep an eye on her. Contact her children (if any)/sister. Let them know there's an issue. They know they can't force her to do anything, but they need to know if there's a change or something is drastically wrong. Thank you for being there when we can't.
Comment: #11
Posted by: Teresa Sipp
Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:10 AM
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LW1--While I think you're over-thinking things with regards to who touches your kid and how I do agree with the Annies in that in general nobody (adults included) should not be forced to hug, kiss, shake hands with or otherwise be touched by anyone whom they object. Personally, I do not like people intruding on my personal space or being touched by strangers. The thought of getting a massage gives me the willies.
LW2--For starters you could mind your own business. How 'Rita' keeps house or the amount of clutter she tolerates isn't your concern. If you want to make a point, you could remind Rita that you haven't been to her house in three years, then withhold invitations until she reciprocates. Otherwise, MYOB.
LW3--As they say, anything more than a handful is a waste.
Comment: #12
Posted by: Chris
Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:26 AM
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LW1: I would never force a child to hug someone and what I found when CC was young was that she had a sixth sense about people. She would back off from some people and then others she would rush into their arms. Looking back, and based on experiences with other people's children, kids pick up on their PARENTS vibes much easier than adults do. Teach them to TRUST their instincts: it's a gift that is often socialized out of children and that is a shame. We should allow our children to develop those instincts and not kill them.
Comment: #13
Posted by: nanchan
Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:03 AM
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LW3: As a Neanderthal, I'll just remain silent on this one.
Comment: #14
Posted by: Gerhardt
Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:04 AM
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LW3: We went over this ad naseum the first few times, but yes, look into breast reduction.
Comment: #15
Posted by: nanchan
Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:05 AM
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LW1:
Regarding the Annie's response, "You certainly can encourage or suggest that she "give Grandma a kiss goodbye," but nothing more than that. If the child balks, don't push or express displeasure":
I think therein lies the problem. Well-meaning parents sometimes want to teach their children to be affectionate and show their love to grandma or whomever, and when the kid balks -- perhaps the kid has done so repeatedly -- the parent gets frustrated to the point where, "OK, you give Grandma a kiss goodbye or else (replace "or else" with "no toy," "you'll get a spanking," etc.) Of course some kids are going to balk because sometimes that's how they naturally are – cranky or balky to the point where they don't even want to do the "fist bump" a la Howie Mandell.
It boils down to what the Annie's and the BTL'ers said. Chris in particular put it well – and I might add that often, the relative who was "spurned," for lack of a better term, should not take it personally. (And that's discounting the "bad breath"/"pinch your cheeks" things that the Annie's stated, and I might add, the overbearing-in-general persona some of these relatives have.)
LW2: While I agree in general about MYOB and that there is little you can do to encourage/get Rita to clean house, I think a few of the BTL'ers are going way off the deep end here.
I just guess I'd say that if I were Rita, I'd throw it back to them. "OK, you say I have a dirty house. Would you like to help me clean?" And let them respond as they wish.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Bobaloo
Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:07 AM
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Re: nanchan
"LW3: We went over this ad naseum the first few times, but yes, look into breast reduction."
I look into it as much as possible. Behind sunglasses, of course.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Gerhardt
Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:13 AM
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Re: Teresa Sipp
Welcome as a new poster, but... You may regret getting that acct, because posting makes you fair game for a rebuttal, and I've got a few things to say to you.
You cannot judge everybody according to what you perceive of your mother. I have 5000 vinyl records. I have a ton of books (all of it neatly stacked on shelves). I operate two workshops, both space consuming. I sell at flea markets and my basement is full of merchandise (plus the toy workshop)... all of it neatly stacked on shelves. I DO have a lot of stuff. And my house is none too clean right now, because it's an old place, difficult to maintain, and I work 60-80 hours a week. Not much time for housework. And I DON'T have " severe anxiety, OCD and depression", imagine that.
But I must be doing something right, because there is no smell and no vermin here, and the firemen have been here twice (on alarms that had nothing to do with me), and they had NO COMPLAINTS. The plumbers were here to change all the pipes, and I did NOT have to empty the basement, because everything is accessible. And yet I've turned into a hermit because I'm sick and tired of perfect strangers who think they have a right to shriek, "My GOD, but there's a lot of stuff here! Do you REALLY need all this junk?" As a matter of fact, I do, and I DON'T have to answer to the likes of you, and start having to defend every object as if you were my Lord and Master and I need your permission to live.
When a man owns what I own, he's a collector and an entrepreneur, and there are bound to be some treasures hidden in his stuff. When a WOMAN owns one fifth of what I own, she's a hoarder and a mental case, whatever she owns is all junk, and people around her fight to have her assessed - like YOU did with your mother.
Look. Can't you understand that when you get your mother assessed, the message you're telling her is that you think she's crazy? How do you think YOU would take to that, if your children pulled a number like that on you, because for some reason they don't agree with the way you live? If you've been nagging her to the point where she had to threaten you with the police, you're coming on WAY TOO STRONG. Unglue your nose out of her business if you don't want to further damage your relationship with her.
Not only you cannot judge others according to what you perceive of your mother, but what you perceive of her appears to be vastly inflated and unduly harsh and judgmental, if your only real complaint is that she has trouble getting rid of her junk mail and that her house is dusty. THIS IS HER HOUSE. According to your own admission, she is a perfectly functioning adult who takes care of herself and her responsibilities. She doesn't need your stamp of approval.
You give your own example as if the fact that there are two of you became proof that the LW2 is right, but what's going on here is that you have the same problem as LW2. So I'll tell you the same I did to her: Back off and MYOB.
Comment: #18
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:31 AM
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I've noticed that a woman who feels physically better about her chest will project that (standing straight up more often) and make it naturally more attractive, whatever the boob size.
Comment: #19
Posted by: Paul W
Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:34 AM
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Re: Chris #12
"If you want to make a point, you could remind Rita that you haven't been to her house in three years, then withhold invitations until she reciprocates. "
I think the woman has already made more of a point than she should. Inviting people to help you clean gives them license to throw out everything they think you shouldn't have. More than one like that in the house, and things can quicky get out of hand. Not to mention that everything ends up in the wrong place and you look for what you need for weeks afterwards. I strongly advise against it.
And has it occured to you that the reason Rita no longer extends invitations is not because she's embarassed, but because she's sick and tired of the disparaging remarks ? I have seen people like her. They just WON'T SHUT UP, and never miss an opportunity to plug their little editorial, because the goal of the maneouvre is to keep on pushing until the "stubborn bitch" finally buckles under the social pressure and conforms to what is socially demanded of her.
Re: Gerhardt #14
There is nothing wrong with a man preferring a well-endowed woman. You only become a Neanderthal when you shriek to one such, "HEY, C**T, YOU WANNA GET YOUR TITS SUCKED?", and you're screaming from the third floor to a woman crossing the street.
Comment: #20
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:46 AM
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Re: Paul W #19
The reason she stands up more often is mostly because she's no longer weighed down by that ton of bricks stuck to her frontside! ;-D
Comment: #21
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:47 AM
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Also, don't force your relatives to hug your child!
Comment: #22
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:46 AM
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Lise - if you work 60-80 hours per week, then how in the world can you have so much time to post here, to Dear Margo, to wowowow, to Arcamax? And if you're working so much, are you still on WELFARE?
Comment: #23
Posted by: Dorothy P
Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:56 AM
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For the luva God, Lise, CHILL! How many times do you have to go on that angry rant about all the stuff you have and how if a man had it, blah blah, but if a woman has it blah blah. I mean, I got the point the first five times you did this. Shrieking at the new poster because she reminds you of people who were disbelieving of all your stuff doesn't do any good - certainly doesn't solve your problem, which seems to be how to deal with them. Instead of getting all "stinkingly mad", you'd do your blood pressure a good service by learning how to shrug and say "Yup! In fact I need more!"
She didn't say her "only problem" was that her mother can't throw away junk mail and the house is dusty. She indicated the house is really dirty and full of junk because her mother, who in an obsessive-compulsive, is obviously overwhelmed by the little tasks and so never gets to the big ones. But I will agree that until this affects her health or her ability to function, it's not for the daughter to intervene.
Comment: #24
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:06 AM
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Only the letter writer know if Rita is the "screw you, leave me alone, I'd rather be out socializing" my house is dirty kind of person or is she the "anxiety/OCD/depression I just won't let anyone into my house, they'll never know" kind of person. If she's the first, then by all means, let her live her life. My motto is "dust gives a home that warm and fuzzy feeling" kind of person. HOWEVER - please don't discount that there could be a real problem.
Lisa: There is a HUGE difference between a collector/seller that is organized and "relatively" clean and a person that is anxiety ridden to the point that she can't throw away a plastic margerine dish even though she knows she should. Or a person that is so insecure/anxiety ridden that she's pushed every family member away so she can try to hide her inability to function at a better level. Mom wants a cleaner house. She wants to sell the house. But if the anxiety is too great to even let your family in your house to help you clean out 50 yrs of stuff..... well you're stuck.
People who have suffered for DECADES with depression, in and out of drs offices by their own volition with the drug prescriptions to prove it, know the drill. It doesn't mean there's not something wrong. And we're not talking about a one-time assessment. We're talking about numerous incidents over the years where numerous drs have said "She definitely needs help, but she's passed the exam. There's nothing I can do." Mom's quite proud of herself. Frankly I wrote off the possibilty of ever being able to help her years ago. So go ahead and condemn me now for not doing enough for my parent. That is the other side of the coin isn't it?
As for me - I stand by the advice I originally gave. If the LW thinks there may be some mental issues, PLEASE keep an eye on her and make contact with the family if you think that they would like help monitoring her. I worried for years that they would find my mother dead in the closet and no one would know to contact me. My mother refuses to have any emergency contacts. PERIOD She could be dead and buried in paupers grave before I'd find out. It's also not unusual for her to be difficult to reach by phone.
There's really not enough information in the letter to make a concrete assessment of Rita's mental state. I'm just giving a very real option of another side of the coin. I've grateful to the angels that watch my mother (and have my phone number!)
Comment: #25
Posted by: Teresa Sipp
Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:18 AM
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RE: Maggie Lawrence
Thanks for your messages yesterday. You were right and I was wrong.
Clearly, no sexism or absurd generalizations about gender exist on this forum.
BWAHAHHAHAHA
Comment: #26
Posted by: Princess Bride
Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:25 AM
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LW1- some of the most horrific memories of my childhood are adults with coffee, cigarettes, and stale booze on their breath, leaning in for a kiss! Not to forget the ones with scarlet lipstick which would leave a big stain on my face! UGH! As an aunt, and now a grandma, when kiddoes seem at all reluctant to kiss me (hubby's family is HUGE on kissing) I quickly say, that's okay, gimme five, and raise my hand for a high five. Then I say, "thank you, sweetie," to let everyone know that this is an acceptable goodbye or hello. I never feared creepy touchers as a kid, but did not like my personal space invaded by smelly mouths. Letting kids decide lets them keep smelly mouths AND creepy touchers out of their personal space.
Comment: #27
Posted by: Patty Bear
Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:36 AM
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Welcome, Teresa. It's nice to have new posters! :) I'm also in the camp of leave Rita alone. LW2 writes She's a “hoarder — not the "Buried Alive" type, but more the Need To Clean House type.” Well, guess what, sweetie. A lot of us could stand to have cleaner houses. No wonder she hasn't invited you to her house in over 3 years. Your obnoxious offers to help have driven her invites away. Sweetie, you need to get a life. Try sticking your nose in volunteer work, rather than other people's business.
On a personal note, my sister visited my old apartment a few years ago, and I caught her on her and hands and knees cleaning my baseboards. I was 25, studying for the Bar, and didn't have the enthusiasm, pride, or time to keep my apartment clean enough to her standards. Guess who I never ever wanted to invite to visit? I'm sure Rita feels the same way about the LW. She's lucky Rita hasn't ended the friendship all together.
Comment: #28
Posted by: Casey
Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:42 AM
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Teresa Sipp, you have my complete sympathy and I'm sort of in your shoes too. My grandmother has about 65,000 pounds of "heirlooms" in a 2500 sq ft house and stuff everywhere.
We're lucky though, she agreed to have a housekeeper and my Mother and Aunt were able to clear out a few hundred pounds of stuff a couple of times last year.
My Grandmother grew up during the depression and probably has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She's never been in therapy but everyone around her has been. She sees our family as circling vultures waiting for her to die so we can tear her house apart, grabbing as many of her treasures as the vans we're going to rent can hold. She once accused me of stealing ONE of her ratty slippers. I told her I did steal it and I sold the ratty slipper so I could buy some crack. She pursed her lips and then said, "Good one, but really, did your sister take my slipper?" My sister lived 80 miles away while going to college.
In reality, we're going to wear hazmat suits and rent an industrial sized dumpster. The only reason we're going to go through her things is because she hides cash everywhere. That cash could help her sister, it won't go to anyone else.
And just so you know, we don't say these things to her. That would stress her and make her life unpleasant. Which isn't wanted. Really.
It's a constant source of joy and amusement, isn't it? (sarcasm, snark, snark)
Comment: #29
Posted by: Chelle
Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:58 AM
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Re: Dorothy P
I don't go to wowowow, you're confusing me with nanchan. And I work from home. I can work on a post anytime I take a five minute break of sit down to eat, even if it takes me an hour on five minutes instalments. SO?
And whatever income I have , I declare to Welfare, and it's up to them to decide what's net and what's gross and if they need to deduct me. Why don't you take it up with THEM, and let them know how much you have a problem with them allowing people to help themselves?
I wanted to go out and sell today, but there is a foot of snow presently falling on Montreal, the roads are very icy and there are people out there who were stupid enopugh to have removed their snow tires already. I'll go tomorrow, so I'm home today. SO?
@Maggie
I'm not stinkingly mad at all, and I know perfectly well how to deal with people like her and the LW - I do what Rita does and only extend invitations to people who don't try to push me into their little round pegs. And yes, I know you've seen my other rant about this, but apparently Teresa didn't.
And do forgive me if I'm a bit sensitive, but I can show you a few others who are too, for the fact that we've been subjected to this yurunda for decades now. The same broken record over and over and over again, it does get old.
But just like my other rerun about breast reduction, some things bear repeating, and you don't need to get stinkingly mad just because you're bored with my post... skip it when you see it's a rerun, it'll be better for your blood pressure too! ;-S
"But I will agree that until this affects her health or her ability to function, it's not for the daughter to intervene."
I'm glad we agree on that one.
@Teresa
The situation you describe seems to be vastly different than the LW2's. If your mother has difficulty discarding a used margarine tub, she's on the way to exhibiting at least one characteristic of hoarders and I don't blame you for being concerned. But if your mother is fully functioning and doesn't want any help, then you have to leave things be and hope for the best. When she realises she needs help cleaning so she can sell the house, she'll ask. It's also possible she'll get a potential buyer who, like me, can look past the clutter and see the house, but she'll probably get a lower price. But... please don't equal your mother's situation with the LW's.
As for my own perspective, I can tell you that there are countless people who do not make the "huge" difference between hoarders buried alive and a "collector/seller that is organized and "relatively" clean ". And I know this because I know men who do what I do for a living, and nobody harasses THEM. It's always the same thing: "Oh, Iffa's place looks like a warehouse and a sow wouldn't find her piglets in there, but that's his livelihood, what can you do..." But show them Lise or Shirley or others, and they're mentally ill. Sorry Maggie if I've said that too the last time, but apparently Teresa didn't see it. ;-D
So when you say only the LW knows if the person she's talking about has mental issues, no she doesn't. Do keep in mind that there are a lot of people for whom *any woman* who doesn't live like they think she should has mental issues. That's doesn't mean it's true.
Comment: #30
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:16 AM
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Re: Casey
Oh my god, I WISH I knew someone like your sister that I could invite to my house! That would be amazing. Cleaning sucks.
One of my grandmas is kind of like that, but she only obsessively cleans her own house.
Comment: #31
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:35 AM
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Lol, Zoe. Next time she's in town, I'll rent her out to you ;) And maybe I was being too sensitive about it. It just sucked because my apartment was picked up, dusted, vacuumed, mopped, etc. etc. She just found the one thing I had missed… I'm sure she just felt some impulse to clean it, rather than making a statement about my uncleanliness. She used to be obsessive like that, and with terrible anxiety. Thank goodness she's on meds now. They fix everything!
Comment: #32
Posted by: Casey
Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:08 AM
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PB, I'm afraid you're mistaken. We really do have the occasional "sexism or absurd generalizations about gender ... on this forum" just not as many or as bad as I think you are taking it. But please remember that assuming women blame everything on men is just as sexist as the reverse.
Lise, I'm not "stinkingly mad" and my blood pressure is fine - I'm not the one who lashed out at the newcomer with the whole story about all your stuff and what people say and what if it were a man, etc. etc. The fact that you keep having to repeat the whole story with justifications every time this topic comes up indicates to me that you "don't" know how to handle it, otherwise it wouldn't get you so upset.
Comment: #33
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:19 AM
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Re: Maggie Lawrence
I think you ascribe a tone of voice to my posts that is a lot angrier than it actually is. Not to mention that passionate doesn't mean pissed off... And it is not because I "don't know how to handle it", that I think it bears repeating, but because most people usually need more than one visitation with a subject before they truly understand the reality of anything. Don't think I'm not including myself in this!
You know, Maggie, the grunt work regarding laws to protect women's rights has pretty much been done in most cases in North America. What very much still needs to be worked on is the remaining parochial attitudes, stereotypes and prejudices - worlds change, mentalities remain. So please forgive me if there are some like me who tend to get onto a soapbox once in a while.
Comment: #34
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:37 AM
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LW1 -- Children shouldn't be forced to show affection. There's a difference between expecting a child to show respect (like saying "hello" and "goodbye" and "please" and "thank you" -- or "no thank you" as the case may be), and expecting a child to show affection. I was always expected to be respectful. When someone came to visit, I had to welcome them with at least a "hello" and say "good bye" to them when they were leaving. If I also wanted to give them a hug or a kiss, that was my prerogative. I have gone to other people's houses where the parents seem so anxious for their little one to show me affection, as if I'm going to judge them if their child doesn't give me a hug. I always tell such parents, "oh, don't worry, my nephew was always shy at that age," or something like that, to let them know that I don't take it personally. A kid who barely knows me shouldn't feel compelled to give me a hug! And that includes children I am related to but don't see very often. More than 95% of my extended family all lives within a one-hour drive of each other, but I live more than 1,000 miles away and therefore don't see everyone as often. Not surprisingly, the kids -- especially the really young ones -- don't really know who I am and are not apt to fall all over themselves to give me hugs and kisses. This doesn't bother me one whit. But I know that some people DO get obsessed with this stuff.
LW2 -- there's a pretty huge difference between a house that is a real hazard and in need of repair, and a messy house. Presumably, the problems with Rita's roof have nothing to do with whether she is cleaning her house properly or not. Unless you think there is an actual hazard here, stay out of it. Offering to clean her house or hire a cleaning service to do the job is not going to fix her roof.
Comment: #35
Posted by: Lisa
Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:41 AM
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Re: Maggie / Lise
My blood pressure is low and so is my cholesterol so I took that to mean that I can eat as much cheese as I want. And I do.
Comment: #36
Posted by: Zoe
Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:02 PM
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Lots of flamin' goin' on here today! Please, can't we all just get along? I like to read lively disagreements BTL, but I do NOT enjoy seeing posters disrespected and insulted. I don't think I'm the only one that doesn't like to see meanness.
Comment: #37
Posted by: Patty Bear
Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:40 PM
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Lise, I think our discussion is more one of tone rather than content, but I do think you tend to take those things that remind you of your own situation too far - at least in regard to tone. I'm referring, for example, to this:
"and I DON'T have to answer to the likes of you, and start having to defend every object as if you were my Lord and Master and I need your permission to live."
Kind of sarcastic, don't you think? And unnecessary, given that the anger inherent in those words is directed at some unseen third party and not the poster you were addressing.
Yes worlds change, but mentalities slowly change too. Getting on soapboxes (metaphorically) has never been a time-honored or particularly efficacious way of making progress - if anything, it may even be counter productive. Angry rants aren't the way to change people's minds.
Comment: #38
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:52 PM
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Re: Maggie Lawrence
In that case then, nothing works, because changing the laws sure hasn't. And you know, I think I'm the best judge of the tone I'm using, even though printed words can lead to confusion. And yeah, I'm quite sarcastic a person... but sarcasm isn't yelling, neither is it a personal attack.
Comment: #39
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:34 PM
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Re: Maggie Lawrence
"but I do think you tend to take those things that remind you of your own situation too far"
"and I DON'T have to answer to the likes of you, and start having to defend every object as if you were my Lord and Master and I need your permission to live."
I cannot prevent you from thinking whatever you want - but as matter of fact, this doesn't describe my situation only - this is a common occurrence. I know several women who have been confronted with that situation, some of them with a perfectly normal, standard interior, and who have had to say a version of that to the people in their lives.
I don't know, perhaps Americans are more tolerant of women being their own persons, but here it's still pretty bad. Women are bankers and truck drivers and all that, but the mentalities are stil stuck in the fifties. Women are still extensions of someone else and God forbid they should own anything and (gasp) occupy any space. On the other hand, I find that abortion and gay rights are much more accepted here than in the US - go and figure.
Comment: #40
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:45 PM
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Well, Lise, maybe in that case it's time to apply the advice that so many BTLers - you included, I think - give to LWs: "You can't change what other people say or do - you can only change how you respond to it." Why those "several other women" care whether or not someone approves of how much "stuff" they have is a mystery to me. Why would such a petty thing become an issue? Unless of course, the person's property really is a fire hazard and a danger to themselves. Honestly, it just sounds like "Princess Bride-bait" - non-issues that lead to the kind of ranting that lead to people like PB coming on here and doing what he does.
If you can point me to a law that makes it illegal to think a certain way, please do it so I can stay as far away from that place as possible.(Your reference to "legislation sure hasn't" and I think we were talking about mentalities.)
I have to add, when it comes to tone, the writer is NOT the best judge of their own. You know what you think you're saying, but that doesn't mean it comes across that way. This applies to anyone, not just you or me.
Comment: #41
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:06 PM
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Re#40
I've lived all over Canada, and don't see the attitude you describe as prevalent. If it were, we wouldn't have situation described, what with women and gay bankers, judges, politicians, etc. (the supreme court's Chief Justice is a woman, and women are premiers of most provinces, probably governing 70% of the population). If women were so disrespected, who keeps voting them in?
I don't mean to suggest the women's rights movement is done (far from it), but the broad generalizations in the post aren't, in my view, accurate.
Comment: #42
Posted by: Jpp
Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:10 PM
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@Maggie #41
Those several other women and I don't "care" about other people's approval in the sense that none of us is going to stop living, or stop what we're doing. But it does become a drag that you get to the point where you stop inviting many people to your place, because you're sick of the editorials and they won't shut up.
And as for "such a petty thing becoming an issue"... One of my friends is a trained singer like me, and she also teaches piano. So she owns a piano of course, plus a number of music scores, a few records... Nothing to write home about in terms of quantity, very modest. The rest of her belongings and interior are very Ikea and standard and her apartment is very neat and tidy. WELL. That isn't generic enough for some, apparently. Her ex used to wait for her to be out of the house and would start throwing out her stuff - one of the reasons he's an ex.
When I still had only a learner's permit, I needed to use the van to work of course, so I used to pay someone to sit by me so I could legally drive. One of the guys I hired that way after I put an ad on community billboards was a tall fellow who, without getting out of line about it, let me know he was "interested". I was actually looking at him, wondering if he was "possible"... Until he entered three feet into my apartment one day for some reason. Right away, it shoots out of his mouth: "There's too much stuff here".
The guy doesn't know me. He knows I sell in flea markets, which should at least alert him to me having stuff to sell... and he doesn't know what else I do that may be space-consuming. He has NO IDEA of what I need, but it's taken for granted that I don't need all this and that there's "too much stuff here". That was the end of his interview as far as him as a potential boyfriend was concerned.
I don't know how militant LW2 is, but the people here... Even if you don't care in the sense that you won't let them get you down, it's extremely annoying and gets more annoying with every time to be subjected to this constant barrage, because it is a constant issue with them forever trying to push the round peg into the square hole and they won't let go, they won't, they won't, they won't.
"You know what you think you're saying, but that doesn't mean it comes across that way."
Of course. And I tend to be dramatic in my wording (that's just the way I am), even if it doesn't mean I'm getting mad... Try to read my posts slowly. I'm not getting excited at all right now, as far as I'm concerned, we're just talking.
Re: Jpp #42
Perhaps you haven't lived in Quebec, at least not as a francophone. The culture IS different, not always for the better. Having been interracting intimately with both the francophone and the anglophone communities for several decades now, I am always fascinated to realise how different worlds the two may be living in, all the while existing side by side and yet often not understanding the other at all, as if they were in parallel worlds. Two solitudes indeed!
And, for that matter, people can be very skeptical about a reality that is completely outside of their personal experience. I can think of many women, Quebecers and francophone, who would look at me like I just fell from Mars and wonder what I'm talking about - because they happen to fit in socially, have never been subjected to what I'm presently describing, and it is therefore a reality they don't suspect exists for anyone. I have personally seen many people deny that racism still exists, because they've never been the target of it and it so happens they never witnessed it. Same song, second verse.
Comment: #43
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:52 PM
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Re: Jpp
One last thing: just because a woman is accepted as a professional in her public life, doesn't mean she isn't being judged on a personal level by her entourage. Also, the women you describe are likely to have an extremely conventional interior, and therefore will not experience the same thing as me and the other women I was talking about.
I was never saying that woman are confined to office, factory and store clerk jobs. But that doesn't mean that everything is all perfect and that some solid prejudices don't endure. How much stuff a woman is allowed to own is one of them.
Comment: #44
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:58 PM
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LW3: If I remember correctly, the original LW was not asking for advice on what to do with her large chest, she was asking how to respond to people making comments about it.
Comment: #45
Posted by: jjmg
Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:21 PM
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Re: jjmg
You may be right, I haven't checked. But, speaking as someone who's had the problem herself, I can tell you from sorry experience that nothing you say or do will make a difference - except breast reduction.
Comment: #46
Posted by: Lise Brouillette
Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:43 AM
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