Annie's Mailbox® by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar

should *not* tar and feather, rather. That's just low class and ends up making the tar and feather leader look the fool in the end.

and sorry for the f bomb forgot my audience, please accept my apologies.

Re: wkh

I wouldn't be so sure. Some people are just serial cheaters - I knew a man who cheated on every SO he had. I once asked him "why? is it that you no longer love your life wife? does she not have sex with you?" And he said he did love her, and that they had sex regularly. She kept a nice house and took good care of their kids. There was no reason for it. People cheat for various reasons... LW3 could be like you or she may just have been caught up in the whirlwind of it all. At any rate, she is living with the consequences.

LW1 - Talk to Al-Anon and Candi's family and stage an intervention as soon as possible. She IS a tragedy waiting to happen!!

LW2 - Okay, let's take it easy on the pedophile accusations, Annies. The fellow is 23 and the girl is 14. Yes, she is too young for him, but we're talking about a fairly narrow age gap. A mature 14 year old and an immature 23 year old are not that far apart. I'm not saying it's okay, just that we shouldn't go around calling 23 year old men pedophiles for dating 15 year old girls.

Anyway, if he just likes 'em young, there isn't much you can do about that. My dad's girlfriends are younger than I am. It's gross but what can you do other than make sure he knows what the legal age of consent is and what can happen if he is accused to statutory rape. If you ever suspect that he goes from "creepy college guy who likes high school girls" to "predator", please don't hesitate to contact the PD.

Re: wkh,

It does not say the husband told the children about the infidelities. It says the children heard about the infidelities from the community. The husband may or may not have told the community. If it is a small town, then the husband does not have to tell the community. People have eyes and if they see you out with another man, they will start to talk. It could have very well been the community who started gossiping about the affair after seeing the lw out with another man. The community will often even gossip about "affairs" when there is NOT an after because they are assuming one. I've had that happen to me.

I have never cheated on anyone in my life, including high school. I never cheated on boyfriends I was play dating either (I'm talking about those boyfriends you had when you were young and you only saw them at school... never even kissed them). However, I was good friends with a male co-worker and people both at work and in the community (it is a small town) misconstrued this, and before I knew it the whole town was talking about my "affair". It did not help this co-worker had the same name as my husband.

I can remember watching a co-worker getting into a police officer's car every day whom she was have sex with, and the cop was married. The wife did not know, but practically everyone in town knew and the "other woman" talked about it proudly. The cop was tight lipped and denied everything. the community has a way of finding out dirt, and if there is no dirt, it will still talk about fictitious dirt.

On another note, I found out about my mother's sordid affair through the community. My father never mentioned the affair to us, and would probably deny it if I asked. The whole community saw her out and about with this man, coming and going from one another's houses and so forth. The whole community would whisper about the affair because of this, and when I heard about the affair from other's in town, I began watching their interaction carefully and realized they were indeed flirting with one another. My parents almost divorced over this, but worked things out. They would not say the reason they almost divorced, but I know it is from mother's affair. I still like my mother, but I look at her differently because of this. My father always treated mother well, so she had no reason to do something so cold to him.

I have a hard time relating to people who have/ had affairs because I have never been in such a position. In psychology, I was taught affairs are typically symptoms of an illness within the marriage. Through my own experience in my marriage, I have found most of our problems arise from poor communication, which we are trying to improve. Cheating being a symptom is probably true in most cases, but I believe some people are just polyamorous and for whatever reason cannot stay with one person. These kind of people should either not marry or at the very least let their lover know before marriage.

LW1- ... Just call the police already. You can either wait til she is drinking or file a formal report ahead of time so the police can be on the look out for her drunk driving. Tell the daughter to call you AT ANY HOUR instead of getting in the vehicle with her mother. She is probably frightened riding with her mother and will be thankful. My sister drove me home when she was drunk once, ironically she would not let me drive cause I was underage and it would be illegal. I can remember how petrified I was.

LW2- Talk to Clay about the legal ramifications of his actions. He may genuinely not realise consensual sex with a minor is still statory rape. Informing him of the possible jail time if one should find out may wake him up. Some young people are naive to this sort of thing. If he already knows this or simply decides he does not care after finding out, then you will have to let him make his own mistakes. I would keep my eye on him though to see if he starts displaying other pathological behavior with his girlfriend(s), like overly controlling, passive-aggressive, violence, etc. He could be one of those guys who are fixated in controling every aspect of their girlfriend, especially when it comes to intimate details like virginity. Younger girls are more likely to be virgins, so this could be why he goes after them. He may want to be their only guy- both past and present- and also may want to control everything else too. Younger girls are more naive and easier to control.

I'm not saying this is how it is, but it is a possibility. Just keep an eye on him and if he gets pathological about it, then call the police on him. If he is just a pervert, then leave him be to mess up on his own, cause it will happen. If you run through the fields enough times you will step in it, especially if he gets one pregnant.

Zoe - take it easy on accusing the Annie's. They said:
"The term for adults who are attracted to teenagers between the ages of 11 to 14 is hebephilia"
They never mentioned the word pedophile. They pretty much said what you did, except succinctly.

Regarding LW3: Can someone in this group please tell me when the original story of "Frank" was posted?

I realize that I am making a tough request, as that story may have appeared weeks or even months ago. But I shall appreciate it in case someone can remember it easily, and tell me. Somehow I missed reading it so far.
Thanks!

LW1 - Yes to all the suggestions BTL. Call the police and advise them when your friend is on the road and give them her destination if possible, and her license plate number, as well as advising her daughter not to ride with her. It could save lives.

LW2 - He should remind his friend that if he IS having sex with these under-age girls, the girl's PARENTS can file rape charges against him, whether or not the sex was consensual. If convicted, he will be classified as a sex offender and will have to register as such wherever he goes. It will also be on his criminal record permanently and will keep him from getting employment if his potential employers do a background check. The Sex Offender Registry doesn't discriminate between consensual sex with an older teenager and the rape of a six-year old child.

LW1: Your priorities are misplaced. Candi may or may not remember she has a handgun when she drinks -- but in this case, the car is the bigger weapon threat, since you know darn well that she's driving drunk. The Annies didn't go far enough here. "Cautioning" a kid not get into the car with her mom when she's drinking is good pie-in-the-sky advice; she needs an alternative to make sure she actually follows through with that. As Maria said ,you need to make sure the kid knows you WANT her to call you for a ride at any time she needs one to empower her to refuse to get in the car with her mom.

LW2: "What the hell are you thinking? Even if you're not having sex with these girls -- and I don't doubt for a minute that you are, because a 15 YO has little else to offer a guy your age -- you're still putting yourself at huge risk. 15 YOs often have fathers and older brothers. And if one of your Chatty Babies slips up JUST once, that's it. You're my friend, but I have to say, this is gross and you've got to stop it, NOW."

LW3: I didn't get, wkh, that she was only sorry she'd been caught and was suffering the consequences. I got the sense that she genuinely regrets behaving selfishly and hurting people she loved, and that she had no real grounds or desire to put her marriage at risk.

Many people get caught up in affairs for no other reason than their lives have become humdrum -- not bad, just not exciting -- and the affair is a diversion, some excitement. But it IS selfish to seek that excitement at the expense of innocent parties. And it's not always just the spouse and kids, either -- my elderly parents were absolutely devastated that my (now-ex) brother-in-law, whom they'd loved without reservation (my sister had often joked they liked him better than they did her) could have hurt their daughter so.

LW1--"I can't tell you how many times her children and I have found her passed out in the yard, on the floor, at the dinner table or behind the wheel of her car while it's in the driveway." "I've confronted Candi only to be told that she doesn't have a drinking problem..." 'Candi' is in denial. In fact, you should call her Cleopatra because she's the Queen of Denial! Addicts like Candi live in denial because to deal with the truth is to admit they have a problem. To admit they have a problem is to reveal they need help. If they need help, then they must be weak. You see where this is going? In order for you to really *help* your friend Candi, she first needs to admit she has a problem and then want to get herself help. There's a an old saying "a picture is worth a thousand words." Since you happen upon Candi frequently in an inebriated state, start photographing and video-taping her. Then, put together a home movie which you wrap up and present to her along with a heartfelt plea for her to get help. If this fails to catch Candi's attention and force her to see herself the way others do then sadly, there's nothing you can do but watch and wait for the inevitable tragedy that WILL unfold.

LW2--"He seems to go for the ones under 18. His current girlfriend is going to be 15 in a month." As 'Clay's' friend, you need to have a serious talk with him about his idea of "dating". What Clay is doing is not only exceedingly reckless, it's borderline pedophilia since he's intentionally lurking in teen chat rooms and apparently has no qualms or moral compunction whatsoever in dating girls who aren't legally consenting adults. Invite Clay over for a heart to heart and be sure you have episodes of 'To Catch a Predator' on in the background to hammer your point home. Clay needs to see that dating children is not a good idea and seek out help if he is unable to control his urge to do so.

LW3--I think the bigger lesson of your story and others like it is: Don't shit where you eat!

wkh: thanks for telling your story. that took some guts. I agree with both you and with Maria.

In some states, consensual sex with a minor is not just statutory rape that will get that 23 year old jail time, it will also get him branded as a sex offender, for which he will have to register with police departments everywhere he lives, sometimes for life, sometimes for a period of 10, 15, or 20 years. Something for that young man to think about - does he really want to be labeled a sex offender for the rest of his life? A lot of employers won't hire anyone with that label, it limits where you can live (especially if teenagers/children are involved), and it can limit the types of jobs you can hold (if you can even find a job).

Re: Zoe
hebephile, not pedophile. Pedophilia is an attraction to children, usually 12 and under. Hebephile is someone attracted to younge teens. No less illegal as a pedophile since in all states messing around with someone as younge as 14 can get you labeled a sex offender for something as simple as a kiss in public. All is takes is for him to kiss her in view of a public servant (police officer) to get his hind end thrown in jail.

LW1-
Whether or not she is an alcoholic (and she certainly sounds like she is) is not even the main issue here, so this yurunda about her denying she has a drinking problem is not the point. The problem she DOES have, is that she's driving after she drinks. And that she has no compunction having her daughter in the car. Which is both illegal and criminally irresponsible. This is a tragedy waiting to happen.

You cannot convince her she needs help if she's not there yet. She has to see this for herself. All you can do is take whatever steps are in your power to take to try and protect the people around her so she doesn't kill someone, as she eventually will. Contact Alanon, stage an intervention, call the cops and call CPS - the kid is underage. Offer to take the kid in. Shake every bell and whistle. Yes, your friend will hate you, but if you don't, you'll never forgive yourself when something finally happens. And it will. It's not a question of IF, it's a question of WHEN. And you know it.

And BTW... Never mind about the gun. The car is a much bigger, more likely weapon right now.

@Chris
Good idea, the tape and the pictures. This can be Show & Tell at the intervention. If it's not enough to hammer the point home... bells and whistles time.

LW2-
And speaking of a catastrophe waiting to happen... Whether or not he's really a predator, he's still dating (and presumably having sex with) underage girls, which could land him in jail and registered as a sex offender for the rest of his life. And as for being a predator... stalks girls in chat rooms specifically for teens, heh? This is deliberate then. Sure looks like a predator on the hunt to me. And he's "always being careful"? Careful about what? Not getting them pregnant or not getting caught?

@Maria
You may have something - virginiy may have something to do with it. That, and the fact that a 14 year-old knows nothing about life and is easily dominated. But I find both you and the LW awfully cavalier about the young girls' fate - You say, "then you'll have to let him make his own mistakes", The LW says "I don't want him to get hurt" What about the GIRLS getting hurt? Is there ANYBODY who gives a damn about these girls, or are they just cannon fodder for some pervert who doesn't like used goods?

@Zoe
I don't agree with you that "we're talking about a fairly narrow age gap". A nine-year difference is not a big deal when the people involved are 31-40, but a HUGE deal when they're 14-23. In the first case, they're both mature adults. In the latter, HE's the only adult and the girl is a KID. Not the same thing.

LW2, notify the server if you can and call the cops. God knows what else he'll be "graduating" to soon.

LW3-
I have nothing to tell you except that, as you made your bed, you're lying in it.

@wkh
I understand that you will find it natural to draw parallels between your situation and the LW's, but she distinctly says that if she could "go back and live her marriage as a faithful wife, she would". She also admits she was "ignorant and selfish", and that she was "nit-picking his flaws and using that as an excuse for her bad behavior", so this is not a case of her getting back at him for being miserable and she definitely is not happy about the end of her marriage.

We have absolutely no indication that the husband trashed her name. And if the LW didn't even have the decency to be discreet, placarding herself all over town with her beau(s), he wouldn't need to. This sure is what this looks like, since she admits her own children "learned about her infidelities from everyone in town".

I don't know how YOU behaved, so don't take this personally, but a woman who behaves like the whore of Babylon, with total disregard for her family being humiliated publicly deserves the reputation she gets. We're not talking about someone being falsely accused here. Anyone dragging their sex life in public shouldn't be surprised that the consequences be also public, and that goes for both men and women.

From what little you say, there seems to be a world of difference between your situation and the LW's. The fact that you're so quick at putting the two of them in the same bag where they don't belong (AND the anger you exhibit at doing so) would indicate to me that this is still raw for you and that there are unresolved issues. Please don't let this eat away at you and look into it. You cannot change the past, but you can learn from it so that the future is different.

Thank you for sharing your story, it can't have been easy.

LW1 - Can't add any more than what everyone else has always said. I hope LW1 manages to act fast before things go tragically wrong :-( God knows nobody needs to turn Christmas into an anniversary of loss.

LW2 - What Clay is doing is downright creepy. He's made it clear he targets *only* teenage girls - no matter how you slice it there's something very wrong with that. It would be one thing if he happened to meet a 17 year old and they took it slow until she's an adult. However, he is deliberately sticking only with teen girls, and as LW2 says, they're getting younger each time he goes on the pursuit again. Not. Right.

Zoe, it doesn't matter how "mature" a 14 year old girl might be. She's still unable to consent legally, IMHO a girl that age would find a full grown man pursuing her to be disgusting, and in MOST cases the law exists to protect her as she's not developmentally or emotionally capable of handling an ADULT MAN pursuing her and possibly grooming her for sex.

I know this argument has come up here before, but it does NOT matter that "kids these days" are having sex younger. The law is still the law, and again, it's there for good reason. Are a teenager's hormones (which I maintain are NOT needs!) REALLY that paramount that they can't wait a few years until they might actually, gee, be ready, and not causing someone to commit a crime, or committing one themselves? Hate to break it to you but they aren't.

It's beyond me how you can compare a 9-year age difference between Clay and his newest, erm, oh, let's just say it, his latest target, to your father dating a younger, but still legal adult woman. Even if your father's dating a 25 year old that is still a far cry from going after a 14 year old - hell that's still a major contrast to an 18 year old adult woman. A grown man going after a young teenager is NOT the same thing, I don't care how much you jump up and down claiming it is.

If Clay is having sex with these *girls*, that is statutory rape... and if he's doing this serially as it appears to be, then yes, that is being a predator. Doesn't matter if you call it hebephilia or pedophilia, it's still targeting young girls, and it is still illegal. Period.

Believe me, if my daughter was 14 and I found out a 23 year old was pursuing her, he'd find me waiting at the door or showing up wherever he told her to meet him to give him a good strong piece of my mind. From there, depending on what I found out from the situation, you'd better bet your butt I'd report him if he'd already had sex with her because one, I'd want to put a stop to him hurting my daughter, and two, I'd want to stop him from hurting someone else. It's not only taking advantage of the girl sexually, it's doing so emotionally, and those scars can run deep.

What bothers me is Clay is not even trying to seek out women his own age. Why is that? Is he getting a power trip out of seeking out someone younger than him, which would allow him to have more control? Certainly it's not because he's looking for a more mature dating pool! He sounds like a case of arrested development at best.

LW2, please talk to your friend now. It's not a matter of if, but when, this will catch up to him and he'll end up in jail. Clearly he's not thinking with the right head and this is plain dangerous. If he makes it clear he doesn't care or gives you a bunch of MYOB crap, then I'd consider dumping him as a friend and perhaps asking the authorities if there's anything they can do to scare him straight.

wkh - Kudos for sharing your story. That was very brave and I"m betting was far from easy.

E - You'll have to go back through the archives to find Frank's story. I don't think it was more than a couple months ago, and if you do a CTRL+F you can search for Frank's name to look for his letter quickly from each day.

I like Chris's suggestion to film "Candi" when she's falling down drunk. Drunks are disgusting no matter where they are, but if this woman is driving drunk with her own child, that amounts to criminal endangerment. Call the cops next time she heads out with a snoot full and give them the description of the car and the license number.
Maybe Clay is also attracted to 15 year old girls because that's his own emotional level. And when he was 15, he couldn't get a girl to give him the time of day, so now he's "grown up" he thinks he can snow them. Power games - and dangerous ones as many have already pointed out.
That LW3 letter sounds so pat to me, I'm wondering if it wasn't actually written by the cheated on husband. Everything in it is what the aggreived party would just love to hear happened to the cheater.

LW1 and LW2: Both of you are wondering what you can do to help your friends and the answer to both of you is the same. You can do nothing.

In both cases, the LWs' friends are engaging in anti-social behavior. Yes, I think a 23 year old man dating a 14 year old IS a pedophiac (and/or whatever the Annies said). It's only a 9 year age gap? Huh? So in that case a 19 year old can date a 10 year old? A 15 year old a 6 year old? In all of these instances, the age gap is unacceptable. A 14 year old is NOT ready for sex any more than a 10 year old even if they are having their periods and LOOK like they are ready.

In both of these letters though, children are at risk.

SO, I don't believe you have an obligation in either case to protect your "friends" but you do have a moral obligation to protect the children involved. In LW1's case, I would contact the father(s) of the children involved and let them know your concerns. Passing out all over the place is NOT the environment for children to grow up in. If the father(s) don't care, call CPS. the comments from my fellow posters are excellent as well, call the cops, let the kids know you are available to give them rides etc.

LW2: If you have any contact with these young girls, make sure you let them know your "friend"'s history and age. I'll bet he is not telling them his real age, he's probably saying he's 18. At 14 an 18 year old guy is "forbidden fruit" yet still kinda hot, but a 23 year old is icky. He's probably lying to these girls and most of them will run the other way when they find out how old he really is. Also, nothing is creepier to any woman than to know a guy is only after you because you fit a specific "type". We like to feel we are special (well, ok, maybe that's just me, but I feel that way!). knowing that this guy they are falling for only falls for chicks who are barely old enough to stay home alone legally will no doubt turn many of them away.

LW3: I'm with wkh on this. You (and Frank) seem to be romantisizing your marriages and forget why you cheated.
I've written about this here before, but I believe that cheaters fall into 3 catagories (I should trademark this I'm using it so much!) 1. Serial cheaters: they cheat because they can't help it and they love the thrill of the chase. they never stop cheating. 2. People who genuinely fall in love with someone else while married/involved with someone else. These people often stay together after the split of the marriage. 3. People who cheat because there is a problem in the marriage and the affair is a cry for help.

It''s so easy, after the fact, to say, I had such a great marriage why did I mess it up? but the reality is that if your marriage was all that happy, you probably wouldn't have cheated (unless you are a serial cheater, totally different story). You have to be honest with yourself...and then move on. The people around you WILL blame you, but your affair was a symptom of an illness in the marriage itself.

My advice to LW3 is stop beating yourself up, get into counseling to find out WHY you cheated (are you a serial cheater? find out!) and move on. You can't change the past, you can apologize for the actions and then it's up to you to create new and better memories moving forward.

Re: Lise,

It's not that I don't care about the girls. The reason is there is not much the lw can do other than talk to his friend about the perverted behavior and/or contact the authorities. I only told him to contact the authorities if he is or becomes pathological cause I have serious doubts the lw would contact the police if the guy is not pathological. There is a good chance he won't call the authorities even if he is a patho since they are friends. It sounds like the lw was writing in an attempt to keep the friend out of jail, so what makes anyone think he will call authorities? The only option the lw has is to talk to him and then let him make is own mistakes.

The more I think about Clay, the more disturbing I find his behavior though. He is going out of his way to meet and focus on these young girls, and then he is actually dating them, not just sleeping with them and disappearing. I truly think he is grooming them for something, like abuse or control or something I cannot wrap my mind around. I hope the lw does keep a close eye on Clay at the very least, but I personally would call the police just because of how disturbing is his behavior. Again, I have serious doubts the lw will though. "He" clearly cares too much about Clay.

@ nanchan

"I don't believe you have an obligation in either case to protect your "friends" but you do have a moral obligation to protect the children involved."

Not quite right. You have a moral obligation to call the proper authorities when you see the law being broken. While getting the fathers involved might make one feel good about "doing the right thing" it is simply butting your nose in where it doesn't belong. Frankly, the fathers should be involved already; that they're not could say a lot of things. As for informing the girls in LW2 about her friend's age and motives, what right does the LW have to do that? It's not her business. My point is that it's not illegal to own a properly licensed firearm, drive a car, or drink at home. What is illegal is to fire the gun unlawfully, take a car out onto the streets drunk or high, or pass out on drugs or alcohol with a child in your care. Similarly, it's not illegal for an adult to chat with underage children on-line or even be in their company. What is illegal is for adults to have sex with underage children. It's not our duty to decide what is and isn't moral, pick and choose when, where, why or how to stick our noses where they don't belong for the sake of protecting someone or to harass people because WE'VE decided something they're doing is immoral or wrong. It's the responsibility of the legal authorities to decide if the law has been broken and then mete out punishment accordingly. It is only our duty (moral or whatever other reason makes us feel good about it) to inform the authorities when we see the law being broken, bear witness with any evidence we might have to support charges of unlawfulness and then step away and let the law handle it.

I stand by my post. 'Nuff said.

Merry Christmas all!

I stand by my post. 'Nuff said.

Merry Christmas all!

I stand by my post. 'Nuff said.

Merry Christmas all!

The longivity of the alcohol abuse is not important. The fact of 1 person excessively drinking and then driving is against the laws of the land as well as all moral judgement. Do not use WELL IT WAS THE FIRST TIME. Someone else may not have the 2nd time to live through a potential accident.
When a person who drinks even 1 gets in a car to drive, they have chosen their behavior. Even 1 drink can disable a person. There are those who will poo-poo it, but it is a fact. If you can 'indeed hold your liquor' I would question your alcoholic tendencies.
Suicidal at best, murderer by most standards. Either way, they think nothing of those around them. Those they would/could/did kill. The families and friends of both sides. The children left parentless. The parents who's children were killed.
And to stand by and watchwithout calling 9-1-1 is a crime in itself.
The one time finding her in the car in her driveway is the same as if she were driving on the street. All US states have that on their books of laws. Exception would to have NO KEYS anywhere in the car, and just be a body dumped into it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To the "sharp" dude thinking it is cool to date pubescent girls. O M G.
Where do you thing the phrase J A I L B A I T came from? And where are the parents of this child. Different things come to mind. Cults is the main one. Why do you think there are laws out there protecting our children. This age is everyone 17 and younger. To say they are in 'love' is a joke. There are many criminals behind bars for the rest of their lives who used the same phrase--as they raped and killed for the same high.
Anyone thinking they are the exception is playing a dangerous game. Action has reaction. Behaviors have consequences. And his will be the total fallout of the rest of his life.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LW1: If you know your friend is on the road while drunk, call the cops. If nothing else you've done has made a dent, then you have to take this action and let her face the consequences for her actions. Far better to have your friend alive and hating you than dead or in jail for killing someone else.

The gun ownership is somewhat irrelevant, unless she's been threatening to use it on people, or waves it around while drunk.

LW2: 15 is below the age of consent in every state in the U.S., so if your friend IS having a physical relationship with these girls, it's illegal. You should make that utterly and completely clear to him, and if he continues and you know the relationship is physical, you should call the cops.

LW3: I'm kind of sorry your problem isn't the kind where I could suggest you call the cops, as I was on a roll. But... you can't change the past. You can only make amends as best you can, learn from your mistakes, and move forward. Dwelling on the past doesn't help anyone. Given the statistics, you are definitely not alone in cheating on your spouse, it's something of a national epidemic.

I hope you are no longer married to the jealous, lying philanderer. You don't need to keep doing that to yourself as penance. Perhaps you might think of moving to some place where you can start fresh, rather than live in a town where everyone looks at you as an adulteress (especially when it's likely many of those who are turning their nose up at your behavior have been secretly doing the same or worse to their own spouses, only they never got caught).

@ nanchan

It's okay! We just have a slightly different viewpoint but basically agree. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!! :-)

LW 2: Call Chris Hansen.

Re: Maria

I wasn't aiming the question paeticularly at you. I think the best way to keep his friend out of jail would be to have a down-to-earth talk about what will happen to him when he gets caught - and he will sometime down the road. Problem is, he may have done a lot of damage by them - unless the LW takes the bull by the horn to mitigate the damage. Problem is, he doesn't sound too concerned himself about the fate of the girls - they can be seduced, broken-hearted, made pregnant, inffected wioth STDs and generally otherwise damaged, la-de-da as far as he's concerned, the only thing that matters is keeping his precious friend out of the slammer. I guess that's what set me off.

I would demand that he shape up and threaten to sic the Law on him. But you're right, he's not likely to. There is also no indication of the gender of the LW, could be a woman. In which case, shame on her.

And Chris is right - when the law is being (seriously) broken, concerned citizens should call the cops, especially when a minor is in harm's way. I sure hope someone ELSE notices this and rats him out.

@Mike H: I'm just shocked you didn't write that LW3 should call the cops because she is going through menopause!

(Slightly off topic, but highly funny in hindsight: when my father found out wife 2 was cheating on him and left him, he sent her every book on menopause that he could find. My sisters and I had to tell him, that's not what a gentlemen DOES, he didn't care. I don't think she read the books.)

Chris, love and kisses to you: looking forward to spirited debates!

And to all, a good holiday: Nanchan has to bake cookies today and provide emotional support to several friends who are going through divorces this week (why does it always happen this time of year?) so I'll be reading, but not commenting. Love to you all!

Aaaaand it's Chris FTW in the debate against nanchan.

Sorry nanchan, you lose on this one. Some states are now requiring ANYONE who knows about a child being abused to report it to the authorities.

Case in point:

abcnews.go.com/ blogs/ headlines/2011/12/ attempted-mouse-shooting-ends-in-man-shot-and-sex-abuse-charge/

To quote from the article:

***In total, there were four men living in the house and Wyant said it is “absolutely” a possibility that the other three men could face charges if police can prove that they knew about the sexual abuse.

“In Utah, you're required to notify authorities of any abuse, whether it be sexual or physical,” Wyant said. “You have to prove that they knew and failed to act, and that can be tricky.”***

PS: I said MORAL not LEGAL

Back to rollin g cookies.

A 9-year age gap is not insignificant at that age. A 23-year old is a college graduate. A 14-year-old is in 8th or 9th grade. Are you seriously saying that a college graduate should be allowed to date a middle-schooler? That's insane. I think we can all recognize that this is entirely inappropriate at the very least, and if the LW's friend is lying about his age or otherwise misrepresenting himself to these girls in order to hook up with them, well, congratulations--he's a predator. The LW is wise to confront his friend and tell him that what he's doing is reckless at the least. His friend is one phone call away from the sex offender registry, and it sounds in this case like it's justified. If LW can't bring himself to call the authorities (and I can't entirely blame him if he isn't) then he should definitely walk away from this 'friend'.

As many other posters have pointed out, a nine year age difference at 14 and 23 is absolutely not the same thing as a 9 nine year age difference at 20 and 29. My husband asked me out when I was 14 and he was 19. I wouldn't go because I thought he was way to old for me. But by the time I was 21 and he was 26, I no longer felt that way.

Also as other posters said, the fact that Clay only seems to be interested in very young teenagers seems like there is something very wrong with him. If they have sex, even consensual, and he gets caught, he will be a registered sex offender for the rest of his life, as he should be.

However, when I was in high school in the 70's, I had friends that got pregnant at 16 or 17, and their boyfriends were all over 18. But they got married, and I don't think that they should have been charged with statutory rape (and they weren't). But these days even if the couple is in a serious relationship, the guy (or girl if she is not a minor and the guy is) will be charged, at least in Minnesota. I don't think that is right unless the younger one is quite young, like under 16.

As many other posters have pointed out, a nine year age difference at 14 and 23 is absolutely not the same thing as a 9 nine year age difference at 20 and 29. My husband asked me out when I was 14 and he was 19. I wouldn't go because I thought he was way to old for me. But by the time I was 21 and he was 26, I no longer felt that way.

Also as other posters said, the fact that Clay only seems to be interested in very young teenagers seems like there is something very wrong with him. If they have sex, even consensual, and he gets caught, he will be a registered sex offender for the rest of his life, as he should be.

However, when I was in high school in the 70's, I had friends that got pregnant at 16 or 17, and their boyfriends were all over 18. But they got married, and I don't think that they should have been charged with statutory rape (and they weren't). But these days even if the couple is in a serious relationship, the guy (or girl if she is not a minor and the guy is) will be charged, at least in Minnesota. I don't think that is right unless the younger one is quite young, like under 16.

@nanchan, hmm, cops and menopause, could be a new theme here. Perhaps LW1's drinking problem is related to menopause, too, but I can't for the life of me figure out how LW2's question is.

Thank you, PS for your suggestion !! [Comment: #14]

Happy Holidays to you, and everyone else....

nanchan - First, no reason to yell - save the all caps. Breathe. It's Christmas. Besides, if you're not careful, your demeanor might transfer onto those cookies and next thing you know all those gingerbread men you just decorated will be scowling at you.

Second, and in all seriousness, many of these laws are founded on moral principles, which means they're one and the same. So again, you don't have a dog - or maybe in light of the season, a reindeer - in this fight.

It's unconscionable by any stretch of the imagination to claim "not it" and not take action when one is aware someone they know is hurting a child. It's that kind of BS that allows these things to escalate into something devastating.

Your argument that the LW should inform the girls' fathers is flawed. First, how is he going to get their contact information, especially as he never says he meets these girls himself? Second, sorry but most Dads of teenage girls I've known would be heading for the gun cabinet if some strange guy called or showed up saying "I need to talk to you about your daughter."

On that note, you have no grounds on which to be self-righteous or snap at people like me and Chris because we point out, diplomatically no less, that you're wrong.

Here's your stocking stuffer for tonight: Friends and relatives of my abusers knew what was happening to me growing up. They knew because I told them. I turned to them for help... they didn't do squat for me, or they would tell me I was overreacting or shame me for trying to "get them into trouble." They, like you, felt it was not their business, that they didn't have an obligation, that their hands were tied, or they were more worried more about upsetting my abusers or losing their friendship than about my welfare.

I hold them as responsible for allowing the abuse to continue as my abusers. It's called enabling. It's inexcusable and selfish.

I still wonder to this day how they can look themselves in the mirror and believe their conscience is clean, living with such a sin of omission. Even if just ONE of them had done something, it could have spared me years of additional abuse and probably helped my healing by the validation of their actions alone. I pray to God their silence isn't resulting in another generation of victims because they continue to be silent and in some cases continue to let one of my abusers be around their kids and grandkids at family gatherings.

When someone like LW2's "friend" is pulling crap like he is, that is the business of *everyone* who knows about it. Period. That's when the phrase "it takes a village" has a hell of a lot of merit.

Here's hoping Clay gets lured by some 6'2", 250 pound male FBI agent posing as Buffy the freshman over chat into meeting behind a mall and getting cuffed for Christmas. Now that would make my day.

"Hallelujah, holy s***! Where's the Tylenol?!" ~ Chevy Chase as Clark Griswold, National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation

Re: PS

Right on! Excellent post, and a Merry Christmas to you too!

PS: I didn't come down on either you or Chris, and no, the gingerbread men didn't scowl. We made chocolate chip this afternoon.

Breathing is good advice you should take yourself. I'm sorry you had a rough childhood. My point about contacting the father of the children was purely based on the fact that it doesn't sound as if they know what's happening. If there are any custody issues, they should be made aware that the children are living with a dangerous alcoholic.

True story: last week I was in court for issues related to my divorce. While I was waiting to be called I sat next to a guy who was going back to court to fight for full custody of his daughter. He told me he and his ex had shared custody. Part of the reason they had divorced was because of her drug use, but she went through rehab and they thought all was well, so joint custody was granted. Well, she got back on drugs. When she was arrested, the daughter was taken into state custody. The police and social services didn't even call the father. When he showed up to take custody of his daughter, the wife (now out of jail) told him the daughter had been put into foster homes.


He was able to get his daughter out of state custody and into his care, but now he has to have the paperwork changed on his parenting plan for full custody. From now on, she will only have supervised visits. Had any of the neighbors or even the ex had called him, however, the girl would not have had to spend two weeks in foster care.

With all the horror stories in the news these days (drug addicts selling their kids for drugs etc), many times the fathers (or mothers as in the case of Ayla currently in the news) are often unaware of the seriousness of the actual situation at the primary custodial parent's home. If the LW is as close to the family as it seems she is, it would make sense that s/he could make contact with the non-custodial parent or Candi's family and let them know the kids are at risk because of the drinking.

I had only the best interests of the children at heart. I have no idea why you had to be so nasty to me, but hope that you have a nice evening and a happy holiday.

"Breathing is good advice you should take yourself."

"I have no idea why you had to be so nasty to me"

Wow. Projecting much? Tell you what - go re-read your huffy replies to me and Chris above, then come back and see whether you're still fit to criticize.

BTW, I wasn't referring to LW1 in respect to notifying the fathers. I re-read what you wrote, and I realized I confused it as your saying *LW2* should tell the fathers of the girls Clay was pursuing.

*buzz*

I was wrong. My apologies, I take that part back...

I would agree in *LW1's* situation, notifying the Dad(s) that their kids are in danger because Mom is a falling down unstable alcoholic is a good idea. Let's hope the Dad(s) don't happen to be in the same camp as Mom because that would really, really suck.

However, what I said still stands in respect to telling Clay's "girlfriends" about him. It's still a bad idea as there's still no way of knowing if he even meets or gets to talk to these girls. There's also a good chance they could find *him* creepy instead if he seeks them out to talk to them... kind of along the lines like they might question whether the LW is trying to pursue them for himself.

Also, teenage girls' thinking/human nature being what it is, one has to ask, if he told them, would they believe him?

When a girl that age thinks she's in love and he's the shyte, especially if they're into the "bad boy" thing, it either goes in one ear and out the other, or the messenger gets shot. Do not ask how I know this.

As worldly as teen girls might be these days they're still teen girls and if they're enthralled with this guy at any level, his buddy saying hey, he's creepy and only after one thing would probably throw up defenses more than anything else. Better to nip the problem in the bud at the source by warning Clay, and if all else fails, report him to the authorities.

Sorry if you mistook my response to Chris as being huffy, I didn't respond to you at all and he didn't seem to have a problem, in fact he and I played nice today. If I was short, it's because I was busy today. Sorry if you misunderstood.

as for your take on LW2: I do agree with you on that. And I don't know how the LW could get the info to the girls at all. I do know though that a lot of these guys do misrepresent themselves to the girls.

You all know about my daughter: and I've written here about a former friend of hers here before as well. One reason they are not close anymore (although they remain friendly) is because of a situation not too unlike the one the LW describes. The friend was hanging out at the "teen center" downtown. There she met a young man who told her he was 17 and that his parents were drug addicts. He asked my daughter's friend if he could stay with her for a few days until he could get a wire from a family member to get a bus out of state. My daughter's friend asked her mother who said, oh you poor guy, sure you can stay in our basement (!!!!! Yikes!) Long story short, a day or so later, she found the guy had posted naked pictures of her daughter to the web, ripped them off. When she gave his name to the police, they knew of him, he was 24 (looked much younger) and he had fled town.

One reason this affected my daughter's friendship with this girl was that my daughter realized her friend had no sense of danger/filters and was so desperate for attention that she put herself and her family at risk. By this time, my daughter and this girl had gone down different paths anyways, but the fact that the girl would pose for naked pictures just baffled my daughter ("how stupid can you be?" were her words).

I am well aware young women can be stupid, I've got a teenager myself and agree with most of what you say. I guess my point in my original post (that I still stand by) was that IF (IF being the operative word here) the LW has contact with these girls (they are out together? could happen) then he should take the moment to mention to them the real age of his friend ("Hey, we're having a 24th birthday party for Rex wanna help?"). I'll bet he's lying. LIke the scumbag that took advantage of my daughter's friend, he's probably posting as an 18 year and if he's got a baby face, he can get away with it. Yikes. Such a dirtbag.

LW1: Why do you need to convince her? Are you mental? Call the police, idiot.

LW2: Your friend is a perv. If you believe he's a danger to these girls call 911.

LW3: You were unhappy and you blamed your husband. But I have a feeling you're still not getting it. It's your job to make you happy. Maybe you imploded your life for a reason. Don't you think you owe it to yourself to figure out why?

I'm sure the girls in letter two don't think they are being abused, just dating an older guy. Although as Nanchan points out, maybe not quite as old as he really is. But since it seems as if the girls get younger as he gets older, and he won't be able to attract them for to many more years, no matter how much of a baby face he has, he is probably just the type of guy who would become a coach, girl scout leader, etc. where he could build trust with the girls and then abuse them. So the LW should do something now before the guy becomes the next coach to make headlines, and not for having a winning team.
Before you all get wound up about "the age of consent" and such, I didn't say the girls weren't being abused, just that they probably don't think so.
Sorry if this double posts again. Incorrect captch difficulties

@PS Did you also stay silent by not going to the police? Or to a teacher that would have had to report it to the police? Why tell the people who were the most likely to protect your abuser and not somebody who would have good reason to help you? You told several people, so you weren't scared to tell.

You could probably have put him in jail, even it was after you got older that you went to the cops. Then he wouldn't be around those kids and grandkids.

I realize I'm late in the game coming to the discussion about "Clay" and his young girlfriends, but I've been busy and my computer was in the shop being repaired.

The situation LW2 describes -- Clay frequenting a chat room for teen-aged girls -- is exactly the concern I have for chat rooms ... of any sort, quite frankly (even the legit ones, such as for technical support or hotline questions on journalism). A young man (or any man, for that matter) will go on there, pure purpose or not, and eventually will find himself unable to resist temptation by some come-ons by a teen-aged girl (whether it actually is a teen-aged girl or a police officer posing as one). He'll form an imaginary friendship, get turned on by her comments and descriptions of herself (just imagining her in that low-cut pink sequined dress ... and taking it off makes his mouth water), and then he can help himself no more and arranges some meeting to "get to know her better" and have sex with her whilst she's wearing that low-cut pink sequined dress.

Then, rrrrrrrrrrrr ... OK, bad onomatopoeia for a police car siren ... he's in jail, and a very long time on the sex offender registry.

Yes, it is possible that Clay is forming friendships with mid-teenaged girls (14-18 years old) and "taking it slow" until they graduate from high school and enter college. Someone suggested that when he was 15, he was simply ignored, which while it may be true (and probably is still true today as relates to women his own age) is a dangerous excuse. I liked the idea of the "To Catch a Predator" and/or other means of intervention.

To me, I'd pass go ... and go straight to the cops. Who knows ... maybe Clay has already enjoyed his steak dinner (having sex with a 15-year-old wearing that low-cut, pink sequined prom dress) and is ready for dessert. Stop Clay NOW! Before he: 1. Has sex with another underage girl (if in fact he is, or if not, before he does the first time); 2. Someone ends up minus a pee-pee (thanks to an angry father); 3. A teen-aged girl ends up in the bottom of a landfill; 4. Clay ends up dead (and the angry father -- we'll call him Rodney -- is at home, still cleaning his gun).

Again, this all goes back to what I hate about chat rooms. This also underscores parents needing to keep their daughters' home computers in the main room and always know who their online friends are.

Finally closing with a story from eastern Iowa -- perhaps some of you heard about this -- about the 23-year-old "friending" teen-aged girls on Facebook and having sex with several of them. He was found out only after one of the girls got a sexually-transmitted disease. He eventually was arrested and sentenced to 10 years in jail for having sex with four of them. I checked out his Facebook page, and he had something like 2,000 "friends," so I wonder -- assuming his Facebook account is still active -- how many online friends he still has?

LW1
Your friend has reached the higher echelons of alcoholism and it sounds like she is lucky to have you as a friend. You know her family and other friends, so it might be time to arrange an intervention. She really needs to face the truth, and rock bottom cannot be far off.
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Klamath Falls, Ore. horrible story of the death of their son due a drunk driver and their local police department not having enough alcohol test kits in "every patrol rig" is something that should not be allowed to continue. I can only hope that the parents led a fundraiser to get enough money so that each and every police rig has a kit. I also can only hope that any local police department makes aware to the public that they are in need of this equipment need or any other that will save lives. I myself have supported the local police and fire departments in getting the special equipment that they require to fulfill their mission of "preserve and protect". Every life counts and every dollar helps to save a life. Please support your local police and fire departments.