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23 and Trapped
Dear Annie: My girlfriend got pregnant during our senior year, so I married her to do the right thing. At first, it was great living together, even with the baby. But now, five years later, we have two kids and she's pregnant again. I know it takes both of us to make a baby, but she is the one responsible for birth control, and I didn't want any more kids.
The only fun I have is playing league baseball, and once in a while, I get out with the guys. Annie, I'm only 23 and want more out of life. We both work, but after paying the bills, we don't have a dime left. Sex is rare. I work around hot women all the time. My wife is going to take two months off of work before the baby is born, and life at home will be miserable. With another child, she will be grumpier than ever. I feel trapped.
My friends, single and married, have a lot more fun than I do. Sometimes after a few drinks, I feel a rage inside and have to walk away to calm down. Don't you think my wife has some responsibility to be more loving to me? I don't even know what my question is, but I know something has to change. — Tired of It All
Dear Tired: We commend you for being responsible, but one problem with marrying young and for obligatory reasons is that you feel you've missed out. Your wife is equally "trapped." The restlessness you are experiencing can be managed if you and your wife love each other and are both willing to work on it. Talk to your clergyperson, or find low-cost counseling through United Way or the YMCA. Also keep in mind that as your friends get married and start families, the differences between you will be less noticeable. (And P.S.: If your wife keeps getting pregnant and you don't want any more children, YOU should be in charge of birth control.)
Dear Annie: You were way off in your response to "Pagan in a Christian Family." To tell someone with different religious beliefs to simply sit quietly during a blessing and try not to upset anyone is ridiculous. Her family should honor her wishes and simply do nothing. Maybe when they are about to say these magic words, she could get up from the table and go into the next room. Sitting quietly gives consent. She is being persecuted. Don't let them get away with it. — M.D.
Dear M.D.: It is not "persecution" to sit respectfully during someone's prayer in their own home, at their own table, even if their beliefs are different from yours. Read on for more:
From Santa Cruz, Calif.: I, too, am a Pagan, and most of my family is Christian. I have no problem sitting through a prayer at family gatherings. I deal with it by silently thanking The Goddess when God is mentioned and My Lady when our Lord is thanked. Part of the philosophy of Wicca is "and harm none," and she is harming herself by stressing over this. We can't change how others view the world. We can only change how we respond. I would encourage her to live her life by example and learn to be tolerant of others.
Oregon: I'm also the only Witch in a Christian family. In order to receive respect from other family members, I not only show respect for their rituals in their own homes, but welcome their mealtime prayers at mine. I don't recite them, but remain, as you say, respectfully silent while I inwardly thank my own deities. If I were to be verbally attacked or had some truly objectionable ritual thrust on me, I would stand my ground. But I don't consider mealtime prayers offensive.
Please, "Pagan," don't add to the hatred and spiritual intolerance that permeates this world. As the Wiccan Rede says, if it "harms none," then do what you will. This should go for all belief systems, not just ours. — Oregon Pagan Woman
Annie's Mailbox is written by Kathy Mitchell and Marcy Sugar, longtime editors of the Ann Landers column. Please e-mail your questions to anniesmailbox@comcast.net, or write to: Annie's Mailbox, c/o Creators Syndicate, 5777 W. Century Blvd., Ste. 700, Los Angeles, CA 90045. To find out more about Annie's Mailbox and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.
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72 Comments | Post Comment
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LW1 - Even though you acknowledge that it took both of you to make a baby, your whole letter blames your wife - look at it from her side - You got her pregnant in her senior year, she had to marry you, and now in five years she already has two children to look after with another on the way, because you don't take any responsiblility for birth control. You get to have fun playing league baseball, as well as going out with the guys once in a while- what does she get to do? What has to change is you have to stop blaming her and being angry. As the Annies suggested, get some counselling to work on your issues. However you resolve them, you will be parents for life - your kids don't deserve to have angry, miserable, grumpy parents. And they most especially should never feel that any unhappiness you and your wife have is their fault.
Comment: #1
Posted by:
Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:58 PM
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LW1 - All I have to say as a married mother of one, "Ever heard of a condom???" It's not entirely up to her!!! Ugh! Your letter makes me sick!
Comment: #2
Posted by: Two Cents
Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:30 PM
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M.D., to call it being "persecuted" for a pagan or witch to sit quietly during a mealtime prayer is, to use your own word, ridiculous. If you or anyone chooses to believe in other spirits or beings, that can be done silently in your own mind while the Christians are praying to the God they believe in. To force the entire family to change their ways for one member is ludicrous. Or maybe a concession could be allowed once a year for silent prayers to accommodate
everyone's preferences. To Tired, who taught you that "she" (the woman) is the one responsible for birth control? Were you raised by a hardheaded man? Since when is it solely the woman's responsibility? You got your enjoyment out of those conceptions, buddy boy. If you had used a condom, maybe you wouldn't be facing a third child in an unhappy marriage. Get your priorities in order.
Comment: #3
Posted by: Jean
Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:36 PM
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In response to LW1 who will soon have three children. He says "she is the one responsible for birth control." I quote Dr. Phil "and how's that working for you?"
For LW2, I understand how uncomfortable it is to be at gathering after gathering where religious people assume everyone is interested in taking time to say a prayer when you are not. As an atheist, if I am at someone else's home as a guest, I will not say anything. But if I'm at a club event, or a restaurant or some place public (not a wedding or a funeral though) and someone says "let's say a prayer" I say politely "please, excuse me. I do not belong to your religion" and walk away for a short while because there might be many others who also don't believe in that religion and would also like to not partake in the prayer. Why should we always be silent and give the impression that we are praying?
Comment: #4
Posted by: FAW
Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:41 PM
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Sorry, both LW1 and LW2 make me angry. Maybe it is because I am tired and cranky right now, but here it goes...
LW1 is a Class A jerk. Why do I say so? Because anybody who says, "I know it takes both of us to make a baby, but she (or he) is the one responsible for birth control, and I didn't want any more kids," IS one. SHE is responsible for the birth control? What, you are incapable of putting on a condom? And if you truly don't want more kids - not just no more kids with this woman - get a vasectomy. Why in the world do Annies "commend [him] for being responsible"? He can't even take responsibility for his own continued procreation when he doesn't want to have any more children or for the fact that his wife - with two kids under the age of 5, one more on the way, and a job - is not more loving to him, or for the fact that without much education beyond high school (apparently), they are barely making enough money to pay the bills. Oh, and getting married because of an unplanned and undesirable pregnancy is not always "the right thing." Most of the time, it is, actually, a supremely wrong thing to do. One mistake (being sexually active in your teen years without being extra vigilant with birth control) is not corrected by making another.
LW2 - Oh, put a sock in it. If I go to a house of people of a different faith than yours, and they perform their own religious ritual, it is not persecution. It is their ritual. "Silence gives consent"? To what? To people saying a prayer in their own home according to their own religious beliefs? You bet. It would be exceptionally rude for a guest not to give consent to the hosts' performing their religious rituals - barring anything illegal or morally reprehensible. If you don't like what they do, don't visit them anymore. I am not a church-going person, and we don't say grace in my house, but even I would get offended if I were visiting somebody who did say grace, and another guest got up from the table and went into another room during that time.
Comment: #5
Posted by: Ariana
Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:52 PM
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LW2: Wow, your suggestions are based on such an intolerant outlook that it just breaks my heart. Respect and compassion truly go both ways and you do have to give some to get some. Statements like yours harm the understanding that many of us wish to have with the world. I've been pagan since I was a child and while my father had much more Christian leanings he encouraged me to follow my heart. He found the beautiful pentacle I wear at all times while I found the cross he wears. As an adult I respect and encourage my father's new found connection to a local church and I even poke him when he forgets to say grace before his meals. We both understand how important our personal connections to the divine are and we respect it. When he says it at meals, or even when he says a group prayer with our friends at a local farmer's market (we're all marketeers) I take the time to say my own prayers. He respects my path and waits for me to lift my head as mine may run a little longer than his from time to time. Maybe I lucked out but I'd like to hope that a little compassion can go a long way. Find those things that you share, those core pieces that connect you and maybe you'll find a bit more personal comfort. Please reach out with an open hand and maybe you'll find that the world will take it.
Comment: #6
Posted by: Hierophantria
Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:09 PM
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It's good to see both LW1 and LW2 being scolded by the other posters here. Both of them had it coming. This must be "spoiled self-absorbed narcissist" day at the Annies' column
Comment: #7
Posted by: Matt
Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:42 AM
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Ariana, the word is with you. Bullseye, both times.
Comment: #8
Posted by:
Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:44 AM
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LW1: A good general rule when married, whatever you are feeling within a relationship it is safe to assume your wife is feeling the exact same way. Here's the thing, your happiness is your responsibility and must be found within first. This "finding" has nothing to do with other people and more to do with doing some personal work to figure out what your definition of peaceful contentment is. You seem like a very unsettled bloke outside of your relationship, your children and your responsibilities. What you see as a dreaded weight you carry, many men who can't have children or who do not have someone to share life with would consider your challenges as blessings. All I can say is grow up and start realizing that the grass will always look greener on the other side, but is it really? Your post is tragic for you really have so very much and do not appreciate any of it at all. As for the birth control comment, you shoulder equal responsibility for that. I just hope your children never are clued in on your resentment. They did not ask to be put in this situation and on their behalf you must man up here and make it all work.
Comment: #9
Posted by: Marty
Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:52 AM
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Wow, LW1 really got himself into a mess didn't he. I guess he missed that day in sex education class where men were taught how to use condoms and never assume the woman is using birth control. Regardless, he is where is today and the past cannot be undone. If LW1 is this unhappy at 23 with two and half kids and a wife he resents, he will really, really be miserable at 33. I really doubt counseling is going to help as long as that feeling of "I've missed out" persists. My advice to LW1 is to get a second job and try a trial separation. There's no shame in admitting that these two made a huge mistake by getting pregnant and marrying too young. The worst thing LW1 and his wife can do is remain trapped together, hating each other, and trying to raise three kids in a "loving" home. It ain't going to happen. Admit defeat and start over.
Comment: #10
Posted by: Chris
Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:22 AM
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Although what Chris says makes sense, the thing is even if LW1 leaves the situation and starts over, he is still carrying those feelings with him. Unhappiness is not something you can run from. Responsibility is not something one can run from either. There is only facing it and living with the outcome for the choices he made. Why Chris did you not suggest LW1 asking his significant other to move out and for him to take on being a single parent himself? I guarantee after one week, he would understand and appreciate his life as it stands. LW1 is not in an easy situation. He was forced to grow up too fast but running away because a person is not happy is part of the problem society faces today. What about giving his kids an incredible gift and in that rising up to the challenges showing them what it means to be a dependable-safe-nurturing father that they can always count on.
Comment: #11
Posted by: Marty
Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:33 AM
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I am totally blown away by the LW1, but am trying to remember he's young. LW1, if you have unzipped your pants you are responsible for what leaves them. Your wife is not responsible, never has been, never will be. YOU ARE. While you are whinning about your life, she's doing all you are doing - working, plus caring for 2 babies and all while pregnant. I dare say she's also the one that cooks, cleans and probably pays the bills. No wonder she's not interested in sex. You keep getting her pregnant than complain about it. You make her feel like a burden instead of a joy, why in the world would she even begin to consider having sex with you the way you are treating her. As for the idea of "cutting your loses," where would that leave your wife with all of your kids? Let me guess, she would get the kids and all their daily responsility as well as a job and expenses while you enjoyed the "single" life and played dad when it is convenient and possibly make irregular contributions to your children's welfare. Man up and share the responsiblity.
Comment: #12
Posted by: Southern Yank
Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:41 AM
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I don't want to pile on too much more on LW1. There's a whole mentality urging kids in high school to grow up too fast. LW and wife succumbed, and yeah, now it's made more difficult by seeing people his age having what looks like a whole lot of fun and never having to think about anyone but themselves. Especially with 2 kids in the really physically needy years, and another on the way. This is a rough patch for almost any marriage, when your life is car seats, strollers, vaccinations, pediatrician visits, ear infections, potty training, feeding, cleaning, laundry, teaching, and broken sleep.
However, now that he's CHOSEN to create those lives and entwine his life with his girlfriends, it's not really about what he wants anymore, at least, not for a few years. He probably can make his wife more loving if he recognizes HIS role in what he's put her through for the last 6 years, too, and treats her with a little compassion and understanding for what she's lost. She's not loving and he works with hot women? Wow -- she probably feels you don't appreciate her like the guys at work do!
I'd also suggest this couple find more families with young children to start socializing with -- through church, preschool, daycare, playgroup, whatever. LW and his wife may be the youngest couple in that group, but that's OK -- they probably have more common interests now with those 28-35 year-olds than they do with people their own age who are at a different stage in life. Being around people who VALUE their kids and delight in them will be good for both LW and his wife, and lessen resentment toward each other for "saddling" them with a family.
Continuing to hang mostly with his current friends is likely to encourage him to become single, too. But just like married life didn't turn out like he planned, he'd find out that divorce is mega-expensive and causes its own set of logistical nightmares. Save that option for TRULY last resort.
Comment: #13
Posted by: hedgehog
Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:47 AM
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So the person from Oregon sits respectfully and listens to Christian prayers said aloud when she's a guest in other people's homes... and then sits IN HER OWN HOUSE and listens while Christian prayers are said aloud. When do her Christian relatives sit silently and listen to her Wiccan prayers?
A good compromise is a moment of silence at the beginning of a meal in _any_ house. That way everyone can pray silently if they choose to and nobody has to sit through anyone else's praryers. Really, aren't these things supposed to be just between you and your deity?
Comment: #14
Posted by: Ari
Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:50 AM
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Re: Matt
I knew you wouldn't let me down, Matt! Kudos for cutting right to the chase on these self-important whiners!
Comment: #15
Posted by: Cher
Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:26 AM
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I'm joining in only because what I want to say to Tired of It All hasn't been said yet. At 23, a guy is barely cooked, and here you are with a wife and almost three kids of your own making. There's no reset button, dude. You move on from here, you don't go back. But imagine this: Tomorrow one of your tiny children runs out in the street and gets hit by a car. Can you see that? Does running with "hot women" seem so important now? Or throw your imagination twenty years down the road when your children are your age. One of them cries, can't hold a job, maybe starts stealing, gets clinically depressed and goes to a psychiatrist for help. After the part about "talk about your childhood" and this grown child of yours says "My father didn't love us. He left us when we were little" what is the rest of the conversation going to sound like? Now the good news. You can rewrite the ending.
Comment: #16
Posted by: Maggie Lawrence
Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:35 AM
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LW1 - It takes two to tango, but only the female partner is responsible for birth control? I don't think so. Use your head. If you don't want any more children, then do something about it. Get yourself snipped, wear a condom, something! You say your wife is grumpy? Gee, I wonder why. Maybe because you get to play baseball and go out with the guys once in a while. Does she get to participate in a hobby? Does she get to go out with the girls? Or is her life work, the house and children only? Don't misunderstand me, your wife is just as responsible for getting pregnant but maybe she could use a little more help. And by the way, when you get rage, you're only mad at yourself for "screwing up" your own life.
LW2 - So how come people should respect your beliefs but you don't have to respect theirs? If someone is in their own home and they wish to pray, they have every right to do so and those who don't share the religious beliefs should be respectful and sit there quietly. Sitting quietly is not saying you "agree" with it. My cousin's wife is agnostic, but when my grandfather died and we had a mass of Christian burial, she went into the church and sat there quietly. She did not recite prayers or do any of the rituals but she didn't walk out and make a scene because she has RESPECT for other people's religion. We also had several Jewish people inside the church, too (they were my Uncle's business partners). They don't believe in Christ, but they attended out of respect. If you truely cannot sit quietly for a minute while people pray in their own homes, then don't go over their homes.
Comment: #17
Posted by: Michelle
Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:58 AM
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Re: LW2: PLEASE READ ALL before dubbing me a hypocrite. Where are all the Christians on this issue? I'm a Christian and if prior to a prayer a guest removed themselves from the room, I would be offended. Where do these "pagans" get their beliefs anyway? I mean really, are they just trying to fit into the Liberal world in order to be liked by people who are so insecure that they conform to be like whoever they are around at the time? Or are they just trying to be different in order to be noticed even at the price of their salvation? Come on people, there is no other proof of any other religion other than Christianity. Believe the truth, Jesus, its the most important decision you'll ever make, how can you deny someone that suffered immeasurably for YOU? Don't take any chances guys, believe in Him. By the way, I'm not a wholly roller bible thumper, I'm a recovering alcohlic with 2 yrs sobriety, and I just want to see everyone in Heaven when I die, even if I had to offend them to get them there...
Comment: #18
Posted by: Crissy
Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:02 AM
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LW!- You are a moron. Ever think your wife was using birth control but it failed? It does happen. Now if you used a condom, or withdrawal method (which is actually quite effective if the man can control himself as my husband and I have used it for the last 10 years, sex about once a week, with no resulting pregnancies and I am very fertile and know when I ovulate but we still do not play with fire on that score...we have 2 kids, both were planned), in tandem with whatever BC she is using you would not have 2 kids with one pending. Taking care of toddlers/babies is hard work, harder if you are holding a full-time job as well though. I cannot imagine the exhaustion your wife must feel, no wonder you dont' get a lot of action, enough though obviously to knock her up two more times on top of the first accident. Boo hoo, you feel trapped, believe me she is probably ready to burst with resentment especially if you act as entitled as you write. Either grow some nads and really take responsibility, go to night school, get a degree, train for a better paying job, support your unwanted family, oh, and get a vasectomy if you feel it won't make you less of a "man" or practice birth control yourself in a responsible manner. Give your wife a break, does she ever go out with the girls or is she always taking care of the kids while you watch TV, play ball, or have one of your night out with the guys? Being a mom is a 24/7 job and having a husband who acts like a kid is no picnic, just about all women are in that position at some point until said guy grows up, usually about age 35-40, you don't have the luxury waiting until then. Otherwise divorce your wife, pay child support on three kids, easily $800-1000 a month if not more, and be free to screw your hot women or anything with 2 legs who is willing (and not get them pregnant) and be a dad two weekends out of the month and even then you will pawn them off on someone, friend with kids, grandparents, etc. Your kids will just love their dad soooo much. As the saying goes, you made your bed, now lie in it ---- you control your destiny, take charge and either man up or get out. Your wife will survive just fine without you, women are strong in that way, have to be as the species would have died off long ago if we weren't.
Comment: #19
Posted by: L
Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:13 AM
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LW!- You are a moron. Ever think your wife was using birth control but it failed? It does happen. Now if you used a condom, or withdrawal method (which is actually quite effective if the man can control himself as my husband and I have used it for the last 10 years, sex about once a week, with no resulting pregnancies and I am very fertile and know when I ovulate but we still do not play with fire on that score...we have 2 kids, both were planned), in tandem with whatever BC she is using you would not have 2 kids with one pending. Taking care of toddlers/babies is hard work, harder if you are holding a full-time job as well though. I cannot imagine the exhaustion your wife must feel, no wonder you dont' get a lot of action, enough though obviously to knock her up two more times on top of the first accident. Boo hoo, you feel trapped, believe me she is probably ready to burst with resentment especially if you act as entitled as you write. Either grow some nads and really take responsibility, go to night school, get a degree, train for a better paying job, support your unwanted family, oh, and get a vasectomy if you feel it won't make you less of a "man" or practice birth control yourself in a responsible manner. Give your wife a break, does she ever go out with the girls or is she always taking care of the kids while you watch TV, play ball, or have one of your night out with the guys? Being a mom is a 24/7 job and having a husband who acts like a kid is no picnic, just about all women are in that position at some point until said guy grows up, usually about age 35-40, you don't have the luxury waiting until then. Otherwise divorce your wife, pay child support on three kids, easily $800-1000 a month if not more, and be free to screw your hot women or anything with 2 legs who is willing (and not get them pregnant) and be a dad two weekends out of the month and even then you will pawn them off on someone, friend with kids, grandparents, etc. Your kids will just love their dad soooo much. As the saying goes, you made your bed, now lie in it ---- you control your destiny, take charge and either man up or get out. Your wife will survive just fine without you, women are strong in that way, have to be as the species would have died off long ago if we weren't.
Comment: #20
Posted by: L
Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:14 AM
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LW1 - Just a thought, but maybe it is her responsibility because they discussed it and she agreed or suggested that she take birth control. This is how it works in my marriage. We are partners and both have different responsibilities in the relationship. On this subject she has taken on the responsibility of birth control. However I do agree LW1 has a lot of work to do to get over his anger issues. Even though the grass looks greener on the other side, once you get there you find dogs crap on that side too.
LW2 - Why does everyone think tolerance is only for their issues and not for everyone?
Comment: #21
Posted by: What?
Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:15 AM
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Chrissy, please go take your meds.
Comment: #22
Posted by: Chris
Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:24 AM
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LW1: Either go to night school or trade school to develop better skills to get a better job or enlist in the military. You are not too old but your wife and kids will get better support than you are giving them now. You will most definitely be too tired to feel oh so sorry for yourself at least through boot camp and training. It will give you a reason to get up in the morning which you don`t seem to have a reason for. Likely you will be sent elsewhere in the world where perhaps you will get a better perspective on life. Hopefully you will grow up a whole lot too.
Comment: #23
Posted by: Kelsey
Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:35 AM
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LW1: You are twenty-three and you've got a third one coming, first off, when you are forty-three, what do you want to say you did at this point? Do you want to look back at yourself and say you threw in the towel? You left your wife to bang a hot chick? Or that you sucked it up, worked on your communication, got a vasectomy, sacrificed some material wants and gave it all to your family? Find a faith center that works for you and your family and find a balance for your life. This is true for anyone with children, it is work to do a combination of what you HAVE to do, what you WANT to do, and what you SHOULD do. Believe it or not, when your kids are in their late teens and twenties, you MIGHT look back and realize how short this time actually is. And the only thing more expensive than a wife and kids, is an ex-wife and child support.
Comment: #24
Posted by: Chelle
Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:50 AM
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LW1 has that incredible blindness many unhappy men seem to get. Your wife is even more unhappy than you, I can assure you. And if you two divorce, YOU will be the loser. You won't have ANY money so forget the hot chicks. Your kids will hate you, your ex will hate you, your life will be hell, and you'll still be miserable and not getting any. Man up, get some career training, get your wife one night out a week, and get a vasectomy. You'll all be happier.
LW2: you have to give it to get it. If you can't respect people in their own home, why on earth are you spending time with them? There is also another famous saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans". It means you don't do things to insult others when you are in their country/home/whatever. Grow up. I rather doubt one of these praying christians would go to one of your wiccan celebrations and then stand up and start praying.
Comment: #25
Posted by: farrar sanchez
Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:01 AM
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Re: Crissy--I'm glad that you are a recovering alcoholic with sobriety of 2 years and have found Jesus; but my religion is as provable as yours and I am not a Christian. I am not a pagan or a wiccan. Neither am I a Buddist or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Zoroastrian or Shinto or Jain or Tao or Sikh or Baha'i but I do practice a major world religion. Please keep that in mind as you go about proselytizing and you might find people are more willing to listen.
Comment: #26
Posted by: BB
Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:10 AM
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Re: Crissy - Wow. You sure come off as a Holy Roller Bible Thumper there. Just say'n.
Comment: #27
Posted by: Rick
Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:37 AM
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Rick and BB, you're both right. (Betcha didn't see that one coming) I know I'm not very good at this, it always seems to come off as an insult and I really don't mean it that way, and I apologize. I guess I just worry about this country too much. I'm certainly no saint, especially in my drinking days but this used to be a Christian country, for the most part and I don't get why so many are turning from it. My sister isn't a Christian, soley because it hurts my mother, no other reason. Also in AA many people were raised with a strong Christian hand and are blaming God for it. Anyway, I'll work on my delivery guys, thanks for the input... As for you Chris, I'm not on any meds, but thanks for your concern! Lol! Have a great day to all!!
Comment: #28
Posted by: Crissy
Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:00 AM
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WoW, post #20 by L. Please, don't hold back...kidding! I say "Amen" to every word...unless, of course, if "Amen" is a prayer that would OFFEND LW2!
Comment: #29
Posted by: Mary Ann
Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:22 AM
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Crissy, please let go of your religious silliness for a moment. There's no "proof" of Christianity, or Wicca, or Judaism, or Islam, or Norse or Greek mytholosy, or any other religion. Some Christians say that what's written in the bible is "proof" that what's written in the bible is true: "The bible must be the Word of God because the bible says the bible is the Word of God." That's like saying the Wizard of Oz novel is proof that witches fly around on broomsticks, or lions and scarecrows talk, or slippers can transport you to other worlds, or woodsmen are made of tin. Someone writing a book and saying "This book is the word of God" doesn't make it so. (I could write a book and claim it's the word of God; would you believe it?) (I expect some people would! The book says it... it must be true!)
I would also call your attention to the range of cult leaders who come and go who've all claimed to be speaking for God, from Jonestown to the Heaven's Gate cult. Their adherents went voluntarily to their deaths, for the most part, because they felt they had a direct line to the "proof" that their prophet was communing, and channeling the voice of, God. (He said it was so, so it must be so, right?) (And of course "Son of Sam" thought he heard God speaking to him through a canine, telling him to go out and murder people; he too thought he had "proof" of his beliefs.)
I'm fine with Wiccans and Christians and Jews and Muslims and athiests and all the rest. But the moment someone starts claiming they have "proof" of their point of view, anyone with a brain not made of clam chowder should raise his or her eyebrows.
Comment: #30
Posted by: sarah morrow
Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:35 AM
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I feel sorry for LW1's wife. She's going to have 4 children soon, not 3, because her husband is Baby No. 1. What a bleedin' whiner!
Comment: #31
Posted by: Claire Beatty
Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:47 AM
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Oh Crissy, sweetie, this wasn't a Christian country as many modern Christians tell us. Yes, they were monotheistic folks, yes they followed the teachings of Jesus but that's where the similarities end. If we look at monotheism as though it were a tree there are just as many branches. The trunk is Judaism - they were the first monotheists and hence the base of all branches of Islam and Christianity start here. A good portion of the founding fathers were deists (folks who blend equal parts philosophy and faith) as were a majority of people living in the new world. None of the founding fathers were hardcore Christians like you seem to be. In fact most were more liberal, spoke against organized religion, and would be thought of as heretics in more modern churches. http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html & http://www.earlyamericanhistory.net/founding_fathers.htm are good starting points.
I cannot speak for all pagan folks but you do us and yourself a great disservice when you speak poorly of a path that is not yours. We all come to our paths in our own way and for our own reasons. Mine has gotten me through things I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy just as your faith has gotten you through hard times. It's been nearly twenty years for me and with each new day I find something to amaze and inspire me and all while never disrespecting the faith of another person, even those who have done me harm in the name of their god. I am glad you have found your path but I would ask that you please respect those who choose differently.
Comment: #32
Posted by: Hierophantria
Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:49 AM
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It's too bad LW1 and his wife got married after she got knocked up. She should have gotten an abortion. Then they could have grown up and (most likely) gone their separate ways, and had kids when they weren't such children themselves. Their lives are ruined, and it ain't going to be a piece of cake for their kids either. LW1 feels like he missed out because he DID miss out. Now it is too late. Why did this complete tool get her pregnant two more times? Why did she GET pregnant two more times? If sex is rare, how can they be screwing up so badly with their birth control? Why do these stupid people have so many kids, when smart people don't have any? This just goes to show, there is no lifeguard at the gene pool.
Comment: #33
Posted by: JoJo
Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:14 AM
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LW1 Tired, you need to GROW UP! Your wife is probably a lot more tired than you. Being pregant when you already have 2 kids is hard, and to have a job on top of that. There is an old saying, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." Most men who complain about their wives would get more of what they wanted if they tried a little romance AND helping around the house. I've known a number of people who "had to get married" as we used to put it. Some never did grow up and it ended in divorce. Others, stayed committed through those rough early years and ended up with happy marriages. Incidently, the ones who made it through found themselves a group of friends in the same life stage (married with young children - not neccesarily same age as themselves) and also over time got more education or job training so eventually they were able to get past the extreme financial struggles, and they found a place of worship that gave them spiritual and emotional support. One couple I know, once they were on their feet eventually chose to have 6 more kids; all supported by them, not the government, before any of you out there start complaining. LW2 Do not infringe on others' freedom by demanding they give up prayer before meals in their own home. If they are in your home and your don't want to pray, if they feel they must thank God, they may pray silently briefly. If even their silently speaking to God in their thoughts offends you, you have a problem. I am very tired of pagans, aethiests, etc. being "offended" and feeling "persecuted" everytime they are reminded that some people believe in God. I teach public school music and one year a kid couldn't participate in our very secular December program because penguins were too "Christian." Another kid had a fit because of a nonreligious folk song when we were doing songs from around the world was from Israel, therefore "Jewish." Oh, and this really caused a laugh at school, of all teachers at my school to get in trouble for "teaching evolution," it was the music teacher when I had a funny song about a dinosaur. And then there are the kids that when we sing "America" complain, but "this isn't my country." We are getting less tolerant instead of more these days, and looking for offence where none is meant. To Hierophantria (lovely name by the way) over 60 percent of the signers of the Declaration were members in good standing of protestant Christian churches, one was even a Presbyterian minister. The Revolution followed on the heels of the Great Awakening, and it is believed by many historians that the two are closely tied together. I've done a great deal of geneology research, and unless my ancestors, and the ancestors of other geneologists I've corresponded with were exceptions, a very large percentage of the rural and frontier population in the mid 1700s was strongly religious, although often in nonstate-endorsed churches. In western North Carolina, 1773, there was a group that rebelled against the British over taxes called the Regulators. If you cross-check records, lay leadership in the local churches and leadership of the Regulators shows a lot of the same people. You are right that Judaism is the foundation of all other montheistic religions. I don't think there are any Christians who dispute that.
Comment: #34
Posted by: Elizabeth
Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:23 AM
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LW1 reminded me of kids I went to high school who "had to get married" young. I saw one of them at a reunion last year, and discovered that she had raised her kids and then had a very successful career. I also recall a relative member some years ago who had a bad case of the "greener grass" syndrome when her kids were about half grown. Another family member who had a divorce in his history talked to the couple and helped them through it, and it was great years later to see them very happy and in love at the 50-year mark. I've also seen marriages (at various ages) destroyed by one spouse hanging out with irresponsible and loser friends and listening to advice from people who haven't made anything of their own lives. What makes a difference in life is what you make with what you've got.
Comment: #35
Posted by: LINDEN MALKI
Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:24 AM
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Re: JoJo "Why do these stupid people have so many kids, when smart people don't have any? This just goes to show, there is no lifeguard at the gene pool."
Oh, there's a lifeguard, but he doesn't have the same priorities you do. His name is Darwin, and he has no mercy for the so-called "smart people" (who probably studied biology at some point) who won't carve out time to make and raise kids. The "inferior" folks (poor, badly educated, lower class) folks are his favorite, since they tend to value larger families and have more kids.
If you would truly change the world, figure out a way for smart women to have lots of kids without derailing their careers. (Traditionally done by outsourcing the child rearing, but heavily frowned on in the US)
Comment: #36
Posted by: Snarf
Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:44 AM
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"If you would truly change the world, figure out a way for smart women to have lots of kids without derailing their careers."
It seems you are making the assumption that the reason 20% of women don't have kids is because they are concerned about their careers. I'm not sure that's true. I think that when people are smart and educated, they have more options in life - a career is just one of those options. When you are smart enough to have a hundred different things to choose from, and know you have those options, the chances are greater that having kids isn't the option you will pick. Poor, uneducated, and stupid people breed like rabbits because they can't fathom ever accomplishing anything else with their lives. Producing more people may be the only noteworthy thing they ever do.
I would not have kids even if there was nothing else to do, because I simply do not like kids and think that having them would be a giant pain in the kazoo. With the population nearing 7 billion, I think we already have enough genetic diversity on the planet that it doesn't matter whether my genes get passed on, and I would rather have a life I enjoy.
Comment: #37
Posted by: JoJo
Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:23 PM
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Re: What?
Re: LW1 - Your point is all fine and dandy, but the wife being solely responsible for birth control keeps failing in this guy's marriage - they keep having babies he doesn't want to have. If her birth control keeps failing or if she stops taking it of her own accord in order to get pregnant (some women are stupid enough to believe that having yet another baby will save their marriage), it's time for HIM to take charge of contraception. When Plan A fails again, and again, and again, it is not very intelligent or practical to whine about it without changing your behavior. It's time to implement Plan B.
Comment: #38
Posted by: Ariana
Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:53 PM
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Ah, Michelle, when we were an agrarian society, it was highly advantageous, economically, for families to have lots of kids. More kids distributed the workload and allowed expansion of production; plus, you could be sure a few would die in accidents or disease outbreaks. Plus, you needed someone to take care of you in your old age.
We're no longer an agrarian society, and while kids have their charms, they're no longer an economic asset. People want their kid to have options in life generally realize their own time and money are too limited to allow them one-on-one time and the music lessons, basketball shoes, etc. that they might want their kids to have -- UNLESS they are wealthy enough to do this and have one parent at home full time to read aloud to the kids, prepare nutritious meals, help little Johnny with the science project, take kids to and from various activities, play board games that help with counting skills, arrange playdates, take the young driver to practice Y-turns, etc. All that is stuff they know can help broaden a kid's view of what's possible.
I think smart women (and men) who have the desire and feel they have the ability to have lots of kids will remain a minority. I'm not even sure that "poor, uneducated and stupid people" (though I really flinch at that categorization) necessarily WANT or plan to have lots of kids -- I think that they tend to not see or consider options open to them.
Comment: #39
Posted by: Lori
Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:25 PM
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Re: sarah morrow-the Bible itself says that there would be false Christs, false Messiahs, so those with faith in the Bible have to stand back and check things out, not blindly believe a person. People who say they represent the Bible don't always, obviously, and it shouldn't be blamed for such people.
As for the Bible itself, it stands the test of time. Applying the commands and principles therein, works for anyone, anywhere, and at any time. It gives a person the strength to change their lives and endure things that others would not be able to.
Comment: #40
Posted by: jar8818
Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:41 PM
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jo jo, It's a good thing that the survival of the world isn't up to you. But then again if it was, we would be in big trouble.
Comment: #41
Posted by: Dominick
Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:43 PM
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Re: smart people not having kids: I must be not very smart - I have two. Apparently, a lot of my colleagues are quite unintelligent because more than half of them have children. It's too bad they let us teach at a major university and do research. :-D But I do have to wonder about the propagation of the species as a motivation for having children. I didn't have my kids for the homo sapiens to survive as a species. I had my kids because I wanted to be a mother. Has anyone ever thought, "If I don't do my part in procreating, the humanity is going to die out, so I better start cracking on getting pregnant"? It seems to me that deciding to have kids is a rather selfish decision since I can't imagine anyone making it for the sake of the humanity.
Comment: #42
Posted by: Ariana
Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:02 PM
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Well Ariana, you're not the only one PO'd by both letters today! After dealing with my personal share of selfish and immature jerks this week I have NO tolerance for those who don't see how their taking others for granted is so destructive and mean!
LW1 - I think about the only person more selfish and willing to blame his woman for all his problems right now than you are is Mel Gibson... and that ain't saying much.
You made your choices. Now grow up. My ex and I also married because I was pregnant and he punished me for that every chance he got by telling me I wasn't trustworthy because it was "90% your fault you got pregnant." As a friend pointed out later on, he made his choice to stick his d*** in me and he certainly had no qualms about doing so at the time.
You already acknowledge you have a level of anger that risks rivaling that and you're starting to drink as an escape to boot. All I have to say is that you may get your "freedom" all right if you don't do something about both, and you may not be the one who eventually makes that choice... but if you think a divorce will solve your problems, buckle up and hold on because I can speak from experience when I say it gets worse, ESPECIALLY for the children.
LW2 - Let me ask you something - if the family who was praying was Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Taoist, Buddhist, or some other non-Christian faith, would you be calling what's going on "persecution?" I'm willing to bet your answer's no? If so, then stuff it. Tolerance goes on both sides of the street, and yes I say that as a Christian.
Chrissy - The USA was NEVER a Christian nation. In fact I believe Thomas Jefferson was a Unitarian, and most of the other Founding Fathers outwardly denied any association with Christianity or any religion at all. Some were quite critical, even hostile, about Christianity (Thomas Jefferson in particular was quite vocal about his opinion that Scripture is "nonsense").
Additionally the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, signed under John Adams' administration, states, "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
Nevertheless they still believed we Christians have the right to freedom from religious oppression like anyone else, thus their efforts to establish The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and other doctrines and actions that allow us to retain the beliefs we hold so dear. So differing beliefs or not, we should still tip our hats and thank them for our freedom and our rights, and hope to God that the ignorance, polarization and hostility that goes on in our society today does not eventually usurp them.
Comment: #43
Posted by: PS
Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:13 PM
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It's a good thing flying all the planes isn't up to me, or growing all the food, or keeping all the lights on, or keeping the water running, or ... I mean seriously, is the survival of the world ever going to be up to one person? Humans have a lot of problems related to overpopulation and are in NO danger of there not being enough of us.
Comment: #44
Posted by: JoJo
Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:25 PM
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Hey 23 & Trapped, you sound exactly like my ex husband, we married very young & had 3 children by age 25. He was always out with the boys and finally I had the guts to DIVORCE HIM at age 32 and so glad I did!! I am in my late 40's now and very happy!! My ex still teases that he wants to get back together but there is no way in hell that will ever happen and we are both married to other people...and I am loving it. I consider my ex-husband someone I grew up with, we known each other since age 15, but grew apart, like a long distant cousin. He still regrets not being there for his kids while they were little and my mom told me "He became a better father after the divorce" LOL!!
Comment: #45
Posted by: LorenaRamos
Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:15 PM
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Jean2here: Regarding LW2: When visiting a foreign country as a guest in that country would one expect them to change their customs and traditions for you OR is visiting an opportunity to understand the people in that country and carry away a better appreciation for how you choose to live in your home environment? This is the exact same principle when invited as a guest for dinner. It would be rude to be disruptive and if one does not agree with the religious practices then that is the guest's right to remain silent while prayers are being said. What it boils down to is good manners and respect for the host in not making a big deal about it. You don't have to live there and no one is forcing you to convert or to pray.
Comment: #46
Posted by: Jean
Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:21 PM
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Ariana, I like your attitude and your honesty. You are going to have to have a lot more kids than two, if you want to join the ranks of the truly moronic. :-) The doofus writing today's first letter already has three by the age of 23, so you have a lot of catching up to do!
Comment: #47
Posted by: JoJo
Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:29 PM
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Jo Jo, didn't your parents ever say to you "what if everyone did that? If everyone had no kids it would all be over. Why are you so bitter? Why can't you just enjoy the world the way it is? Having no kids doesn't make the world a better place. Although the world with less people that whine like you do, just might be a better place. Maybe you could help the overpopulation problem by dropping dead.
Comment: #48
Posted by: Dominick
Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:31 PM
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Jo Jo, How could you say you don't like kids? It's the same as saying you don't like people. Do you think you are better than the other people you meet in your life?
Comment: #49
Posted by: Dominick
Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:56 PM
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Dominick! chill, brother! and Right On to JoJo! A huge congrats for having the spine to not have children if you dont want them. Not many people are smart enough or brave enough to pull that one off. Most of us cave to social pressure and have children even when we can't think of 2 good reasons why we should and then raise the lazy, weak children growing up in America today, chock full of Concerta, apathy and cholesterol. I applaud you and hope some young folks will learn from you.
Comment: #50
Posted by: bigmac
Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:26 PM
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Wow' I've learned a lot today. Ill forever be a Christian, however I do need to practice respect for the spirituality of others as well. Have a great night everyone!
Comment: #51
Posted by: Crissy
Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:54 PM
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Re: Dominick - Dude. Chill. Your remarks are mean spirited, uncalled for and quite frankly pretty stupid. Seriously, if everyone quit breeding and "it was all over" then I guess no one would be here to know, or care, that it was all over. Duh. JoJo's decisions on having kids has zero bearing on the quality or circumstances of your life.
Comment: #52
Posted by: Rick
Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:13 PM
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I can't really bring myself to feel much more than pity for LW1, not because I think his wife trapped him but because he sounds very immature and uneducated. I would not be surprised if his wife was the same. I hope for all of their sakes that he and/or his wife reach out and get some free counseling. Maybe with it they can get some education on birth control along with how to be good parents and good spouses. He also needs a new support system that doesn't consist of a bunch of single guys who just want to hang out and drink. I just hope it happens before he walks off and leaves his kids or becomes such an angry person that they leave him.
LW2 sounds a bit immature too and doesn't seem to understand the meaning of the word 'persecution'. Being persecuted is losing your job or having someone call CPS because they don't like the books they saw in your house. Maybe having someone key your car because of your Pagan bumper sticker. I certainly hope being asked to sit quietly while people pray to a different God is the worst she ever experiences. When your head is bowed, you can offer your prayers to whoever you want to, no matter who the people around you are praying too. It really is not that difficult.
Comment: #53
Posted by: Datura
Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:39 PM
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Added to my last comment: By offering your prayers, I mean silently. A God worthy of your prayers can hear them no matter how they are offered.
Comment: #54
Posted by: Datura
Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:41 PM
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Holy crap LW1. Ever heard of a vasectomy???
Comment: #55
Posted by: Jess
Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:39 PM
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Dear Annie,
Guess I should start off by saying I love (I'll call her Candy) with all of my heart. I can honestly say that I have never felt this way about a woman in a long time. Now I'll start with what's been bothering me. I wanted to see if she would be faithful to me. I guess you could say it was a trust issue, but I really didn't know any other way to do it. I went to a well known instant messenger site and created a fake profile. I IM'ed (instant message) her under the other name and started talking to her. I was kind of shocked at first on some of the answers I was getting to some questions I had. I'll give you an example; I asked her if I (the fake guy) could see her. She quickly said she was in a town not far from the fake guy had listed in his profile. I then said that I had no way to get there and she answered with her phone number and said for me to call her. I explained I didn't have a phone right then, and that I would just communicate with her through this IM site. She even went as far as to ask for a picture, which I found one and sent it. I went on for about 3 days, posing as this other guy and she wouldn't always answer him back, but when she was sure that I (real me) wasn't around she would. Now I asked her several times if she planned on leaving her Boyfriend (me) and she answered yes, I then asked when and she answered she didn't know when. She told him that she was going to leave because of mainly a trust issue.
Then just the other day, I was in the back room where the printer was located, and on the printer was a conversation between “Candy” and another guy. This time the conversation got to where she said again it was just a matter of time before she was going to leave me. She also mentioned that she wasn't happy. This time when I actually confronted her about this she said it was just talk and that it meant nothing, that she loves me and that if she didn't want to be here, she would have left already. I don't know whether to believe her or the conversation I read. I really love her Annie and need to know if you think I should accept what she tells me to my face, or just cut ties and take my losses?
Deep In Love in AR
Comment: #56
Posted by: Jay Christy
Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:05 PM
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Dear Tired of It All: Of course you're tired.Two young children are exhausting. It is also frustrating to work so hard and not have anything to show for it.
1. Things will get better as your children grow.
2. I bet your wife is even more exhausted than you are. Does she have activities that she does for fun? Does she get enough sleep and help around the house. This can contribute to problems in your relationship.
3. A vasectomy is an effective form of birth control. It's cheap and you don't have to think about it. The hormones of pregnancy and hormonal birth control often change the affectionate nature of women if you get my drift.
Comment: #57
Posted by: jennifer
Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:41 PM
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At least "trapped" is being honest. Lots of young men have similar feelings, but they don't express them because they know critics will come screaming out of the woodwork. It appears to me that his feelings are valid, at least to an extent. Both he and his wife appear to be trapped. The fact that they're trapped together doesn't make it any more pleasant for either of them.
My advice to him is:
1) stop trusting your wife with the birth control. She has shown that she is either not trustworthy, or not effective. This has huge consequences for you, so you need to take effective measures yourself to make sure there are no more kids after this. If need be, you may even want to consider a vasectomy. It won't make you less of a man but may give you back a measure of control of your life and future. Both men and women are victimized by unplanned pregnancies.
2) Several women have posted comments here about how thankful they are that they got divorced; I would expect their husbands are thankful those marriages are over, too. So if it doesn't appear solvable any other way, consider ending the marriage. Your main obligation is toward the kids, not toward this woman you barely knew when you first impregnated her. I'm not saying divorce or separation should be your first option. But keep it in mind as one of them, if things don't get better.
This isn't to say you should duck your responsibilities. You know in your heart that the kids need you, and you do need to support them, whatever happens. I would try for their sake, first, to work things out. But if that fails, you do not have to live in an unhappy marriage. It may be better for everyone, including the kids, to think about a separation. Better to live the life you can stand, and pay child support, than to live a life you hate with someone you no longer have any affection for.
If you do this though, please look for ways to still be part of your children's lives. Don't let the animosity in your marriage deprive your kids of a father.
Comment: #58
Posted by: sarah morrow
Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:43 PM
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Crissy, I appreciate what you said and agree with you wholeheartedly. And I'm disgusted with everyone here who took you to task over it. I could name names, but they know who they are. They're allowed to say all manner of disgusting things about our faith, but the minute we respond in-kind, we're jumped-on and accused of being hypocrites. I know, I know, love your neighbor and all...I just get frustrated with the constant bigotry I encounter from non-believers. We've got something wonderful to tell them about, and they're too busy living their own lives as they see fit, to care. I can't tell you what a breath of fresh air it was to travel to a Third World country and talk with people that were actually interested in hearing the good news. Here, if you start to talk about Christ, people throw a bunch of bull at you, say you're narrow-minded and accuse your faith of being at-odds with "science."
Comment: #59
Posted by: Matt
Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:37 PM
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Personally, anyone who stood up and left my table during prayers would be asked to leave, and not invited back. We show proper respect for God in MY house. And I wouldn't eat with wiccans or witches or whatever in the first place. I am not going into their homes to listen to them praise gaia or whatever dirt and plants it is they worship.
Comment: #60
Posted by: Matt
Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:39 PM
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Re: Cher. Thank you so much for the kind words. It is great to know someone around here appreciates my viewpoint.
Comment: #61
Posted by: Matt
Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:52 PM
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Ariana: I agree 100%. I was just trying to put out a different point of view on why he might say birth control was her responsibility....she agreed to it not that he thought it was a womens job to do it.
Comment: #62
Posted by: What?
Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:26 AM
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That's rich ... Dominick tells me to drop dead and then says I'M the one who hates people and thinks I am better than others. Just because I don't want to have children and don't like being around them (well, the younger ones anyway - older ones can be okay) doesn't mean I'd ever want any of them to drop dead.
Comment: #63
Posted by: JoJo
Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:48 AM
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Re: Matt
And there it is, Matt...... you say you wouldn't eat with Wiccans, and do your best to totally insult their religion. You're the one with a problem, spreading hatred and intolerance in the name of your own religion. I know some Wiccans, and they're good hearted, kind, good humored people. You're offended that Wiccans love the natural world, want to protect it, and worship the good things in nature? They may not worship the same image of a bloodied man nailed to a cross that you do, but that doesn't justify your vitriol toward them. You seem to be the one full of nastiness and evil. If you really believe in Christian values, I hope you'll pray to God to remove some of the hatred from your heart.
Comment: #64
Posted by: sarah morrow
Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:01 AM
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As a Pagan, if the prayer I heard wss along the lines of "Lord we thank you for this meal, for allowing us to share it with friends and family and please bless us all." then my response would be a heartfelt "Amen." These are all sentiments I would agree with and support. I would just picture my God in my minds eye when they say Lord. If the prayer went something like "Lord thank you for this meal, for allowing us to bring world of your praise to our sinning friend/family member. Please bath them in your light and allow us to save them form an eternity in hell." well, then my response would be a whole different matter. I'd let them know that I do not believe in the Christian hell so do I do not need to be saved from it, that I'm sorry the can not except me for who I am and then I would leave.
For any who are interested my primary female deity is Gia (the representation of Mother Earth) and my primary male deity is Ares (greek god of war). Many people, evan Pagans, have questioned my choice of Ares, but I was a soldier, so it makes sense to me.
Blessed be to all of you and may you get to experience many of the wonders that life is full of.
Comment: #65
Posted by: Michelle Keane
Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:00 AM
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All you bad non-Christians better quit making Matt so angry, or else Matt will pray for God (who looks just like Matt except he is 25 ft. tall with a long white beard) to strike you down with a lightning bolt!! GRRRRRRR!!!!!
Comment: #66
Posted by: Brock O. Lee
Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:21 PM
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As a Christian myself, I have to laugh when fellow Christians (or for that matter, any religion in the U.S.) claim that they are "the most persecuted people in the U.S." We have churches on every corner, and we are free to worship where we choose and do whatever we want in our homes. We don't have to meet secretly in basements, hiding from the government, or from other religions. If we're portrayed badly in the movies, that's an annoyance, not persecution. Not being allowed to proselytize at work or at school is not being persecuted.
I've had students from other countries tell me about fearing for their lives because of their faith. One young man, a drop-dead gorgeous, sweet-natured person, who was Iranian, and practiced BaHa'i, told me of not being allowed to drink from certain water fountains at school, being afraid every day of getting beaten up, and of losing family members who were murdered because of their religion.
That's persecution. Having to listen to another religion's before-meal's prayers is not.
I hate being around my religious fanatic, holier-than-thou SIL, but that's an annoyance I can deal with. I don't call it being persecuted.
Comment: #67
Posted by: Joannakathryn
Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:49 PM
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Joannakathryn-- Amen!
Comment: #68
Posted by: hedgehog
Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:45 AM
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Re: hedgehog: Amen again! The writer claiming "persecution" is just silly (and I'm guessing very young). But let's not fail to note how courteous and reasonable the other Pagan/Wiccan writers were. If everyone practiced a fundamental respect and tolerance for other people's religions, there would be a lot less trouble in the world.
Comment: #69
Posted by: Van Wickle
Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:57 AM
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Re: sarah morrow: You said it, sister! Matt is a very poor advertisement for his religion.
Comment: #70
Posted by: Van Wickle
Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:01 AM
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I feel like everyone missed the point in LW1: WHen he said "She is the one responsible for birth control" I assumed that meant that they both decided she would be on birth control. It sounds like she deliberately went off of it to become pregnant. Seems like she pulled a fast one on him, and he thought she was on the pill, but she lied. Did anyone consider that possibility? Otherwise, why in the world would it be a surprise that she got pregnant? Obiously the guy thought his wife was honest. And I'm female.
I'm not saying that's the explanation, but it's a possibility, given how he worded the letter. If they decided, as a couple, that he would be responsible for birth control, then yes, he should be using condoms.
That said, he is also obviously very immature, and never got his fun out of his system. Maybe he can take a one-week vacation once a year with the guys, and then she can do the same with the girls, so each of them can have some fun. They need it.
Comment: #71
Posted by: Salty
Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:30 PM
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He is "trapped" because morons believe every hapless haploid that meets with another is automatically "a baby". If only the Levites hadn't adulterated that schizophrenic BS Abraham espoused....!
Comment: #72
Posted by: Hatter
Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:02 PM
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